e85

[alerored04]

Anyone can rationalize until they believe whatever they want but the facts as they lie show that you are wrong. Until the vehicle is tuned to run E85 you will be causing damage. BTW how can you collect data without DHP or HPTuners to datalog it? Other than that i don't see how you think you are monitoring the situation. Talk all you want but you will not be right until you get that tune done. Believe me i would love to see the tune happen so i can eat my words but right now i stand by my previous statement, one of these days you will be back here asking about rebuild procedures.

[peppermill]

Originally Posted by alerored04

Anyone can rationalize until they believe whatever they want but the facts as they lie show that you are wrong. Until the vehicle is tuned to run E85 you will be causing damage. BTW how can you collect data without DHP or HPTuners to datalog it? Other than that i don't see how you think you are monitoring the situation. Talk all you want but you will not be right until you get that tune done. Believe me i would love to see the tune happen so i can eat my words but right now i stand by my previous statement, one of these days you will be back here asking about rebuild procedures.

Please oh please show me test data to back up these "facts!" then I don't have to figure it out myself!

All I ask, is ONE EXAMPLE of someone hurting something by dumping E85 in a 2002 Grand AM GT with a 3400. (and not abusing it, purposely trying to blow the damn thing up)

Come on people, you're all so damn smart, you all think you know so much, you all talk the talk, and spout off about why I'm stupid and you're so smart because "you just know it's hurting things!" So someone step up and produce me a real life example!

[cardude007617]

you know, with the price of gas going up (i see 3.55 normally around here).... he does have a point switching to e85

[Upshift]

Originally Posted by peppermill

Please oh please show me test data to back up these "facts!" then I don't have to figure it out myself!

All I ask, is ONE EXAMPLE of someone hurting something by dumping E85 in a 2002 Grand AM GT with a 3400. (and not abusing it, purposely trying to blow the damn thing up)

Come on people, you're all so damn smart, you all think you know so much, you all talk the talk, and spout off about why I'm stupid and you're so smart because "you just know it's hurting things!" So someone step up and produce me a real life example!

Didn't you say you'd spit them out yourself? So on one hand you claim you will, eventually, come with all the datalogs and numbers about the effects of E85 on our engines. On the other you tell people to step up and produce them themselves so they can show you how smart they are. What's wrong, afraid you might be wrong and you wanna chicken out of that deal by using other peoples attacks as grounds to get rid of your responsibilities that you put on yourself?

If you wanna be a real man, then don't be so easily unnerved by other peoples criticism, shut up and get them numbers printed and scanned for all to see. If your right then you will have earned the right to brag all you want. If not then at least be man enough to admit it.

It was your idea, so step up to the plate. And this being a forum, until you prove us wrong, we can basically call it BS all we want. If you're annoyed or tired of having your idea attacked then do the necessary steps to defend your belief and get us some actual numbers instead of just "it feels nice".

Just try not to take it too personally if you do end up causing damage and we find out.

[lvemy3100]

http://www.aeroforcetech.com/images/silver_silver2.jpg

[Upshift]

Originally Posted by cardude007617

you know, with the price of gas going up (i see 3.55 normally around here).... he does have a point switching to e85

One catch.

And that one is proven. Although E85 is technically cheaper by the gallon, even on vehicles built and tuned for it, the gas mileage on E85 is so bad its actually more expensive to run. The only advantage is on the Emissions side of things since its "greener"

[Upshift]

Originally Posted by lvemy3100

http://www.aeroforcetech.com/images/silver_silver2.jpg

LOL, so lemme guess, by getting this we would get all the info we need.

ALright pepper guy, you know what to do

[Mike Jung]

Originally Posted by Upshift

One catch.

And that one is proven. Although E85 is technically cheaper by the gallon, even on vehicles built and tuned for it, the gas mileage on E85 is so bad its actually more expensive to run. The only advantage is on the Emissions side of things since its "greener"

Only if looking from one side of it.

It actually takes a lot of energy to produce ethanol from corn.
Not like the results from using sugar crane to produce ethanol.

Not to mention it is taking corn out of our food supplies supply.

[lvemy3100]

Originally Posted by Upshift

LOL, so lemme guess, by getting this we would get all the info we need.

ALright pepper guy, you know what to do

umm you do know that you jsut quoted me and i only posted the link to that pick so that i could show what he is going to use for scanning so he can find out what his IPWs are before coming from iowa to see me for tuning

[Upshift]

Originally Posted by lvemy3100

umm you do know that you jsut quoted me and i only posted the link to that pick so that i could show what he is going to use for scanning so he can find out what his IPWs are before coming from iowa to see me for tuning

yeah i know,

I was using you're quote as a way to basically point out... meh


nvm im being redundant

[Upshift]

Originally Posted by Mike Jung

Only if looking from one side of it.

It actually takes a lot of energy to produce ethanol from corn.
Not like the results from using sugar crane to produce ethanol.

Not to mention it is taking corn out of our food supplies supply.

Never saw it like that.

comes to show, ethanol is overrated

[lvemy3100]

actually i kinda would like to know waht you have to say... the guy is gonna get tuned and is going to be scanning the only way he can to make sure he is keeping from damaging things... if it turns out that he shows a bunch of KR or his injectors are maxed constantly he wont be running it anymore till its tuned for ethanol use... but we wont know till he does it...


also he asked for people to show the damage done by using e85... yea he asked for specifically a 2002 ga but only cause everyone else acts like there was anyone who messed one up with e85... i know that if you could post anything about a 96+ vehicle being wrecked as a dircet result of e85 use that we would both be happy just to see it... but if you found info about a 99+ ga i would give ya a dollar ..

not trying to get into anything with anyone here just wanted to make some points about things i am seeing posted in this thread...

[Mike Jung]

Originally Posted by Upshift

Never saw it like that.

comes to show, ethanol is overrated

Yeah, I was surprised by it too.

That it takes more energy to produce ethanol; than the energy ethanol contains.

Now in Brazil:
They use Sugar Cane to produce ethanol.
The ethanol production is much more efficient than from corn.
Something like double the ethanol output per arce needed to grow corn.
& it only needs 1 unit of energy to produce like 8 units of energy of ethanol.

In fact the US government has a ban on importing cheaper produced ethanol from Brazil; in favour of more expensive, corn produced ethanol in the US.

[cardude007617]

this is becoming a very interesting read.....

so would E85 be a great fuel to run a turbocharged car;specifically a grand am/alero/malibu 3400 for more boost and more output?

[AaronGTR]

Originally Posted by peppermill

Please oh please show me test data to back up these "facts!" then I don't have to figure it out myself!

All I ask, is ONE EXAMPLE of someone hurting something by dumping E85 in a 2002 Grand AM GT with a 3400. (and not abusing it, purposely trying to blow the damn thing up)

Come on people, you're all so damn smart, you all think you know so much, you all talk the talk, and spout off about why I'm stupid and you're so smart because "you just know it's hurting things!" So someone step up and produce me a real life example!

We can't... no one's been stupid enough to run improper fuel in their car before... until you showed up.



You talk about a "minority" of loud mouth jerks telling you you're wrong? Seems to me that so far EVERYONE here has told you you're wrong... and we've all been working on, tuning, and studying these cars a lot longer than you have. You're living in denial my friend. Keep on believing what ever you want... but save it for somewhere else. We really don't want to hear your delusions anymore.

[Mike Jung]

From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol_fuel_in_Brazil

Comparison with the United States

Brazil's sugar cane-based industry is far more efficient than the U.S. corn-based industry.
Brazilian distillers are able to produce ethanol for 22 cents per liter, compared with the 30 cents per liter for corn-based ethanol.[7]
Sugarcane cultivation requires a tropical or subtropical climate, with a minimum of 600 mm (24 in) of annual rainfall.
Sugarcane is one of the most efficient photosynthesizers in the plant kingdom, able to convert up to 2% of incident solar energy into biomass.
Ethanol is produced by yeast fermentation of the sugar extracted from sugar cane.
Sugarcane production in the United States occurs in Florida, Louisiana, Hawaii, and Texas.
In prime growing regions, such as Hawaii, sugarcane can produce 20 kg for each square meter exposed to the sun.

U.S. corn-derived ethanol costs 30% more because the corn starch must first be converted to sugar before being distilled into alcohol.
Unfortunately, despite this cost differential in production, in contrast to Japan and Sweden, the U.S. does not import Brazilian ethanol because of strict U.S. trade barriers (tariffs) corresponding to a levy of a 54-cent per gallon – a levy designed to offset the 51-cent per gallon blender's federal tax credit that is applied to ethanol no matter its country of origin.[8]
These are promoted by the powerful American sugar lobby, which does not want a competitor to high-fructose corn syrup, and domestic sugar interests.

The United States and Brazil lead the industrial world in global ethanol production. On March 9, 2007 Ethanol diplomacy was the focus of President Bush's Latin American tour, in which he and Brazil's president, Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva, agreed to share technology.
The Brazilian sugar cane trade agreements permit various Central American (Colombia, Costa Rica, and Panama), Caribbean, and various Andean Countries tarrif-free trade thanks to concessionary trade agreements.

[peppermill]

Originally Posted by lvemy3100

http://www.aeroforcetech.com/images/silver_silver2.jpg

Ordered. At first thought, my logic was that if I've got it floored, and I see the injector pulse width stop increasing, but still have a lot or RPMs to go, I'll know that I'm out of injector, and pretty much exactly how much I'm out of injector.

Then I realized that isn't correct. Injectors fire per intake event, and pulse width will vary with airflow per intake event, not the RPMs. (more RPMs doesn't equal more pulse width... because more RPMs equals more injector firings)

All the math from the days of LT1_Edit is starting to come back to me.

So how exactly is this gage going to help me again on the Grand AM? Not that I have any regrets, because this gage will spend some time in the Grant AM, but it's real home is in the Duramax. I've always wondered what the pilot injection was doing, and what the and fuel rail pressures were doing. And a boost gage. That'll be a welcome addition. How dare they ship a turbo diesel (any turbo vehicle for that matter!) without a boost gage!

But back on topic, how is this gage going to help me again in the Grand AM? Sure, it'll do a lot of the same stuff a scan logged to a PC would do, but it's all the same data a PC would get. So PC or gage, I can't very well get the A/F ratio, because I'm assuming the 02 sensor isn't wide band. So it's not a value that can just be pulled out of the computer.

I can change fuel, and watch pulse width, and have a pretty good idea what the biggest number is, then attempt to cause a lean condition (lower fuel pressure... by quite a bit...down to 10PSI.... because flow through an orifice doubles at 4X the pressure if I remember correctly. Starting at 40, and going to 10 would cut my fuel in half, and I should see a double in pulse width, after the fuel trim corrects for it) and see if I get more pulse width. If I don't, then I know what my biggest pulse width is.

Will the gage (or scan from a PC) display A/F ratio by simply calculating pounds of fuel per hour vs pounds of air metered past the mass airflow sensor? I read the manual, and I didn't see what it used to display A/F ratio. If it was a value pulled from the 02 sensor, or if it was a value calculated off mass airflow rate ratio to fuel flow ratio (fuel flow would be duty cycle times 1/2 RPMs times pulse width).

If it's a calculated value, then it's easy. I watch the Air Fuel ratio and drive. Ease peddle towards floor, watch power enrichment mode, watch RPMs go up, and if A/F drops off....

Wait no, that's not going to do that, because calculated A/F doesn't take in to account the different oxygen requirements of the different fuel unless the PCM has a good handle on the fuel trim data and will take that in to account when it's doing the A/F calculation.

So *IF* the PCM has good fuel trim math, and IF the gage gets the numbers from the PCM after the fuel trim is calculated, THEN the A/F *MIGHT BE CLOSE*.....

That assumes that the fuel trim is not being limited by some bound in the trim table. Oh, and that the trim has some idea of the actual injector flow due to the different viscosity of various ethanol blends. I'm going to go out on a limb, and assume that the trim table hitting a boundary is what's tripping the "Bank 1 Too Lean" code.

So I'm left somewhat stumped... about what the gage is going to get me, vs what a data log would get me. I think a wide band would be required as a sanity check to verify all the calculated data from the PCM, regardless of the method to read it.

And this is why I require the help of a tuner that knows the nuances of this particular car's PCM.

I can definitely see why it's easier to just drop in slightly larger injectors, and let the PCM fuel trim table adjust down to near it's "Bank 1 too Rich" limit on E0, so it just barely approaches the "Bank 1 too lean" limit on E85 and run with a stock PCM.

But where's the fun in that?


P.S.
Mark knows the humor behind me continuing to ask "What good's the gage going to do me!?".
Inside joke.

[peppermill]

Originally Posted by Mike Jung

Yeah, I was surprised by it too.

That it takes more energy to produce ethanol; than the energy ethanol contains.

One guy, (who's study was funded by an oil company!) was paid to do a study that showed that. He was wrong. He picked data, then made assumptions on it to arrive at the conclusion he was seeking. Yet, strangely enough, it gets brought up all the time as some fact, despite everyone else showing that it does not take more energy to produce it than you get.

Even though it's wrong anyway, I've always argued that point with a big "So What?!" The energy that it requires to make ethanol is mostly coal and natural gas, and nuclear energy. When is the last time you tried to put either of those in to a car? They make poor transportation fuel. (Unless you're driving a steam locomotive, aircraft carrier, or submarine). So if the ratio is bad, it really doesn't matter. If the ratio was better for Fisher Tropsch from either coal or natural gas, the oil companies would do it in an instant, and put the ethanol guys right out of business.

Originally Posted by Mike Jung

Now in Brazil:
They use Sugar Cane to produce ethanol.
The ethanol production is much more efficient than from corn.
Something like double the ethanol output per arce needed to grow corn.
& it only needs 1 unit of energy to produce like 8 units of energy of ethanol.

In fact the US government has a ban on importing cheaper produced ethanol from Brazil; in favour of more expensive, corn produced ethanol in the US.

No ban. There's something like a 52 cent import tariff per gallon. And a 51 cent tax incentive for domestic production. When you take shipping costs in to account at a few cents per gallon, it just makes it more economical to make it all in the US.

If we just had MORE RAIN FORESTS TO CUT DOWN TO PLANT SUGAR CANE AND GROW IT IN OUR TROPICAL CLIMATE WE'D HAVE IT MADE IN THE SHADE!! But we don't.

It's chicken and the egg. To get to cellulose ethanol, you need a market for ethanol. To get a market, you need a viable supply. Right now, the easy way to that supply is to have a market that's fed from corn ethanol, and when demand reaches a certain level, shift to different inputs. Eventually, when we're making it out of yard clippings, tree residue, and switch grass, corn will be the last thing we turn in to ethanol.

[peppermill]

Originally Posted by AaronGTR

We can't... no one's been stupid enough to run improper fuel in their car before... until you showed up.



You talk about a "minority" of loud mouth jerks telling you you're wrong? Seems to me that so far EVERYONE here has told you you're wrong... and we've all been working on, tuning, and studying these cars a lot longer than you have. You're living in denial my friend. Keep on believing what ever you want... but save it for somewhere else. We really don't want to hear your delusions anymore.

My wife purchased our 2002 Grand AM in 2001. I started working on it when it had 450 miles on the clock. When did you start wrenching on Grand AMs?

I was tuning (natural and forced induction) LT1s and tuning them with LT1_Edit before some of the loudmouths that were bashing on me even owned a car. Yeah, I know, not a Grand AM. But the concepts (and probably a lot of the code in the PCM!) are the same. I came to this forum seeking nuances and specific input on the Grand AM.

I've made (forced induction) 550HP at the rear wheels of an LT1, entirely doing all fuel, air, timing, transmission torque / shift management to keep a stock 4L60E from destruction, and everything else I could get my hands on in the PCM. I was frustrated because I couldn't modify the actual compiled algorithms... I was stuck with tables and other values changed in an editor, and it aggravated me. I stopped when my now 5 year old was on the way, because I just did not, and do not have time to get sucked in to spending all my time being a hobbyist tuner, playing with cars, running a business, AND managing to stay married to my wonderful wife. So the tuner hobby got the axe. To me, hooking up to the OBD port with a laptop is heroin. I've been down that road. Now I'm clean, and I'm not going back.

That's the reason I don't go get a software package to scan the PCM. Because it would be a gateway drug to tuning, and I really REALLY do not need that right now in my life.

(Instead I now waste all my time here arguing. Oh the irony!)

So I don't want to hear what I do and do not know, and how long I've been working on cars.

[SpyhunteR]

E85 likes a completely different A/F then regular gas...............

You know that right?

You tuned LT1's, congrats. You still proved to me and I'm sure to others that you're "smart".


here's a fun link, and a fun video in the link as well for all you crazed bastards who think you have to change so much.

http://www.change2e85.com/servlet/Page?template=Myths