e85

[ltpats]

I manage a fleet of about 60 vehicles that run E-85 and or Gasoline (dual fuel), all new vehicles designed to run on E-85. Less MPG, not a very noticiable power loss. Availability in Ohio very limited. We also have 6 dedicated CNG honda's, that run on natural gas only range is only about 200 miles and as for availability of fuel stations well lets just say we dont send them very far.

[peppermill]

Originally Posted by SpyhunteR

E85 likes a completely different A/F then regular gas...............

You know that right?

You tuned LT1's, congrats. You still proved to me and I'm sure to others that you're "smart".


here's a fun link, and a fun video in the link as well for all you crazed bastards who think you have to change so much.

http://www.change2e85.com/servlet/Page?template=Myths

I know that it flows differently through injectors, I know that it requires different tuning, esp for cold starts, and I know that the ideal air fuel ratio is different.

All that matters to me and the PCM is "Can and does the PCM maintain balance in closed loop, and with that fueling information, can it scale to the fuel flows required when it goes to open loop? (at start during cranking, during warm up, and during enrichment when the PCM is using just the MAF, crank sensory (RPMs) and throttle position sensor to estimate what it thinks is proper fueling.

In my particular stock Grand Am, it seems pretty close. Can the stock fuel system handle it? Not sure. Is it drivable with no mods? Yes. Is it too lean? Unsure. To hurt anything? Unsure. (my gut says no) When I know more, I'll pass it along.

I hope to be able to explain exactly what's required to do E85 in a Grand Am 6 months from now. Not in theory, but in practice.

I hope to finishing the fuel barrel fix up, and set up in the next few days, and get my first 300 gallon delivery of fuel next week so I can stop making excuses to drive 80 miles round trip (sometimes carrying fuel jugs) to get my E-fix.

[Upshift]

Originally Posted by lvemy3100

actually i kinda would like to know waht you have to say... the guy is gonna get tuned and is going to be scanning the only way he can to make sure he is keeping from damaging things... if it turns out that he shows a bunch of KR or his injectors are maxed constantly he wont be running it anymore till its tuned for ethanol use... but we wont know till he does it...


also he asked for people to show the damage done by using e85... yea he asked for specifically a 2002 ga but only cause everyone else acts like there was anyone who messed one up with e85... i know that if you could post anything about a 96+ vehicle being wrecked as a dircet result of e85 use that we would both be happy just to see it... but if you found info about a 99+ ga i would give ya a dollar ..

not trying to get into anything with anyone here just wanted to make some points about things i am seeing posted in this thread...

actually what i had to say was completely unrelated to the issue at hand, ans was thought up at 1 in the morning, so its not important nor is it valid.

[lvemy3100]

Originally Posted by Upshift

actually what i had to say was completely unrelated to the issue at hand, ans was thought up at 1 in the morning, so its not important nor is it valid.

LOL


understood

[Upshift]

Originally Posted by peppermill

I know that it flows differently through injectors, I know that it requires different tuning, esp for cold starts, and I know that the ideal air fuel ratio is different.

All that matters to me and the PCM is "Can and does the PCM maintain balance in closed loop, and with that fueling information, can it scale to the fuel flows required when it goes to open loop? (at start during cranking, during warm up, and during enrichment when the PCM is using just the MAF, crank sensory (RPMs) and throttle position sensor to estimate what it thinks is proper fueling.

In my particular stock Grand Am, it seems pretty close. Can the stock fuel system handle it? Not sure. Is it drivable with no mods? Yes. Is it too lean? Unsure. To hurt anything? Unsure. (my gut says no) When I know more, I'll pass it along.

I hope to be able to explain exactly what's required to do E85 in a Grand Am 6 months from now. Not in theory, but in practice.

I hope to finishing the fuel barrel fix up, and set up in the next few days, and get my first 300 gallon delivery of fuel next week so I can stop making excuses to drive 80 miles round trip (sometimes carrying fuel jugs) to get my E-fix.

Well then get crackin, i'm also curious to know the results.

Infact i'm curious about everything, which is part of the reason i love cars so much. There's always something new to learn and try out

[peppermill]

Originally Posted by Upshift

Well then get crackin, i'm also curious to know the results.

Infact i'm curious about everything, which is part of the reason i love cars so much. There's always something new to learn and try out

I agree.

Statge 1)Pour in E85 and see what happens. Will it run? Will it break? Will it asplode?

Results: Works. Probably not going to destroy the car, but can't be 100% sure until stage 2.

At lower blends, everything works like normal. No diference from E0 to E10 to E20. Feels much more responsive, powerful in the E30-E40 range. At E30, doesn't show a loss of milege over E0. At E40, you start to see a loss of mileage, and know it has more power. At E50, a MIL light will illuminate, but car still runs awesome. E60 *SEEMS* the same as E50, but I've spent very little time in that range of fuel. At E70, hard starts when below 40 degrees overnight temp. Starts harder as it gets colder. Annoying...had to pour in more normal gasoline. At E70 and above, seems to lack all the power I remember at higher RPMs and lots of throttle. Anything above 4K rpms. Probably leaning out at WOT. Mileage drop of 25% at that blend.

Stage 2)figure it out for real.... get real numbers off the computer to see how lean things are. Determine if I need injectors, fuel management, etc, or if it's just possible to do an E85 conversion with nothing more than uploading a file to the PCM.... or maybe that and just a fuel pressure regulator.

Results: Ubber-Gage has been ordered.....Will gather more information at that time.

Stage 3)

Get a tune. Try again. Keep trying until it's right.

Stage 4 )Have a Grand AM Flex Fuel Vehicle. Spend $10 on some badging. Be a smug bastard. Convince others to do the same. Create cloud of smug from Grand Am owners that threatens to take over the world, just like in that south park episode......

[AaronGTR]

Originally Posted by peppermill

My wife purchased our 2002 Grand AM in 2001. I started working on it when it had 450 miles on the clock. When did you start wrenching on Grand AMs?

I was tuning (natural and forced induction) LT1s and tuning them with LT1_Edit before some of the loudmouths that were bashing on me even owned a car. Yeah, I know, not a Grand AM. But the concepts (and probably a lot of the code in the PCM!) are the same. I came to this forum seeking nuances and specific input on the Grand AM.

I've made (forced induction) 550HP at the rear wheels of an LT1, entirely doing all fuel, air, timing, transmission torque / shift management to keep a stock 4L60E from destruction, and everything else I could get my hands on in the PCM. I was frustrated because I couldn't modify the actual compiled algorithms... I was stuck with tables and other values changed in an editor, and it aggravated me. I stopped when my now 5 year old was on the way, because I just did not, and do not have time to get sucked in to spending all my time being a hobbyist tuner, playing with cars, running a business, AND managing to stay married to my wonderful wife. So the tuner hobby got the axe. To me, hooking up to the OBD port with a laptop is heroin. I've been down that road. Now I'm clean, and I'm not going back.

That's the reason I don't go get a software package to scan the PCM. Because it would be a gateway drug to tuning, and I really REALLY do not need that right now in my life.

(Instead I now waste all my time here arguing. Oh the irony!)

So I don't want to hear what I do and do not know, and how long I've been working on cars.

I got my GA in 2000 and started working on it so I have a few years on you... plus the fact that I've done way more to mine so I know the car better. I pulled my first engine with my dad when I was fifteen... so what? So you've done some tuning on LT1's... so what? Congratulations, you worked on an engine so popular in it's time that everyone knew how to tune it and practically all the knowledge is out there for anyone to find. I don't see what that has to do with running e85. Tuning a car for e85 is not the same as tuning on regular gasoline.

The fact is there are some gapping holes in your logic which is why people are giving you such a hard time. You need to do more research, because whatever you thought you knew about tuning isn't serving you well here. If you knew how the electronics and computers in these cars worked, and you truly knew about the differences with running e85, you wouldn't be using it without making some changes first. First off, the stock injectors do NOT flow enough to maintain a proper AFR with ethanol. Yes, there is a closed loop O2 system that can make adjustments, but there is also a limit to how much the PCM can adjust the fuel trims... and if the injectors can't flow enough anyway you'll reach that limit quickly and max them out. That's why you have a check engine light, and probably all kinds of DTC's stored in your PCM. It's probably running lean as hell and detonating even under medium throttle too, which would cause it to pull ignition timing and lose power. Prolonged operation in this condition WILL damage the engine eventually. Will the car run on e85... yes. Is it a good idea to do so with a stock car... no! If you keep doing it you are basically crossing your fingers and hoping it doesn't blow up.

[SpyhunteR]

Originally Posted by peppermill

I agree.

Statge 1)Pour in E85 and see what happens. Will it run? Will it break? Will it asplode?

Results: Works. Probably not going to destroy the car, but can't be 100% sure until stage 2.

At lower blends, everything works like normal. No diference from E0 to E10 to E20. Feels much more responsive, powerful in the E30-E40 range. At E30, doesn't show a loss of milege over E0. At E40, you start to see a loss of mileage, and know it has more power. At E50, a MIL light will illuminate, but car still runs awesome. E60 *SEEMS* the same as E50, but I've spent very little time in that range of fuel. At E70, hard starts when below 40 degrees overnight temp. Starts harder as it gets colder. Annoying...had to pour in more normal gasoline. At E70 and above, seems to lack all the power I remember at higher RPMs and lots of throttle. Anything above 4K rpms. Probably leaning out at WOT. Mileage drop of 25% at that blend.

Stage 2)figure it out for real.... get real numbers off the computer to see how lean things are. Determine if I need injectors, fuel management, etc, or if it's just possible to do an E85 conversion with nothing more than uploading a file to the PCM.... or maybe that and just a fuel pressure regulator.

Results: Ubber-Gage has been ordered.....Will gather more information at that time.

Stage 3)

Get a tune. Try again. Keep trying until it's right.

Stage 4 )Have a Grand AM Flex Fuel Vehicle. Spend $10 on some badging. Be a smug bastard. Convince others to do the same. Create cloud of smug from Grand Am owners that threatens to take over the world, just like in that south park episode......

For the record most every car built these days has to be able to run fine w/ 10% ethanol mixed in to the gasoline. Pumps here in Las Vegas add 10% ethanol all the time. You shouldn't notice any difference at all, period.

When you're running more ethanol than gasoline, you will end up throwing codes for running too lean.

There is no experimenting with your vehicle to be done. If you want to run E85, go to your tuner guy and git'er done. If you intend to keep the car stock, just toss in some slightly higher fuel injectors, and retune for the appropriate a/f and if you also so desire tune a little bit aggressively to make some power. E85 has a cooling effect and is a higher octane so you can get away with a bit more timing than normal gasoline.

[peppermill]

Originally Posted by SpyhunteR

For the record most every car built these days has to be able to run fine w/ 10% ethanol mixed in to the gasoline. Pumps here in Las Vegas add 10% ethanol all the time. You shouldn't notice any difference at all, period.

Yeah. That's what I said. Except that I blended higher. ~E20, ~E30, ~E40, ~E50, ~E60, ~E70 ~E70+

You might as well tell me that the sky is blue.

Originally Posted by SpyhunteR

When you're running more ethanol than gasoline, you will end up throwing codes for running too lean.

The sky *IS* blue! One code, bank 1 too lean, above E50. Have you been reading this thread? You know that I've actually been doing this, right? You're telling me I will throw codes after I've said that I've thrown codes?

Originally Posted by SpyhunteR

There is no experimenting with your vehicle to be done. If you want to run E85, go to your tuner guy and git'er done. If you intend to keep the car stock, just toss in some slightly higher fuel injectors, and retune for the appropriate a/f and if you also so desire tune a little bit aggressively to make some power. E85 has a cooling effect and is a higher octane so you can get away with a bit more timing than normal gasoline.

You must have actually read this thread where that's all been covered. Since you're the expert, and I haven't been able to find an "expert E85 tuner" what would you recommend for injectors?

[Upshift]

Lol its so funny how this thread has become a battlefield

[PhantomLover007]

Yeah. I'm suprised it hasn't gotten locked yet.....

[Shock24Z]

Originally Posted by peppermill

Ordered. At first thought, my logic was that if I've got it floored, and I see the injector pulse width stop increasing, but still have a lot or RPMs to go, I'll know that I'm out of injector, and pretty much exactly how much I'm out of injector.

Then I realized that isn't correct. Injectors fire per intake event, and pulse width will vary with airflow per intake event, not the RPMs. (more RPMs doesn't equal more pulse width... because more RPMs equals more injector firings)

I don't know about all that ... I just go by this:

http://www.ecanfix.com/~mdhamilton/dutycycle1.html


I generally don't like to see 20ms or higher while scanning and above 80% duty cycle isn't good.

I also wouldn't use IPW's to determine whether you need bigger injectors or not without a proper tune on the car. The PCM is still commanding the stock AFR's, not the ones you'll be running. So even if your IPW's look good now they could go static later after tuning.

Originally Posted by peppermill

Will the gage (or scan from a PC) display A/F ratio by simply calculating pounds of fuel per hour vs pounds of air metered past the mass airflow sensor? I read the manual, and I didn't see what it used to display A/F ratio. If it was a value pulled from the 02 sensor, or if it was a value calculated off mass airflow rate ratio to fuel flow ratio (fuel flow would be duty cycle times 1/2 RPMs times pulse width).

If it's a calculated value, then it's easy. I watch the Air Fuel ratio and drive. Ease peddle towards floor, watch power enrichment mode, watch RPMs go up, and if A/F drops off....

Any A/F you scan for without a wideband will be a commanded A/F. Not calculated.
Past 70%(IIRC on a stock 3400) you will enter power enrichment (PE) mode and the commanded A/F will change from 14.7 to somewhere in the 13 range. Then a PE vs Time graph will adjust the A/F if you stay on the throttle.... I can give you a real good idea right now what your A/F numbers will look like when you floor it.

Originally Posted by peppermill

So *IF* the PCM has good fuel trim math, and IF the gage gets the numbers from the PCM after the fuel trim is calculated, THEN the A/F *MIGHT BE CLOSE*.....

Only true for stoich. The narrowband won't help you outside of that.

Originally Posted by peppermill

That assumes that the fuel trim is not being limited by some bound in the trim table. Oh, and that the trim has some idea of the actual injector flow due to the different viscosity of various ethanol blends. I'm going to go out on a limb, and assume that the trim table hitting a boundary is what's tripping the "Bank 1 Too Lean" code.

Your fuel trims will likely be jacked. LTFT's max out at 25% I believe. STFT's at 99%.

[SpyhunteR]

Originally Posted by peppermill

Yeah. That's what I said. Except that I blended higher. ~E20, ~E30, ~E40, ~E50, ~E60, ~E70 ~E70+

You might as well tell me that the sky is blue.



The sky *IS* blue! One code, bank 1 too lean, above E50. Have you been reading this thread? You know that I've actually been doing this, right? You're telling me I will throw codes after I've said that I've thrown codes?



You must have actually read this thread where that's all been covered. Since you're the expert, and I haven't been able to find an "expert E85 tuner" what would you recommend for injectors?

Give me your car and let's go play with it on the dyno.

[Panacea]

Originally Posted by SpyhunteR

Give me your car and let's go play with it on the dyno.

Screw it, let's just beat him up instead. It's people like him making my grocery prices go up!

[cardude007617]

ya, he's burning up your corn . damn that woulda worked so much better for our buddy "corn"master

[Upshift]

LOL finally, the mood became a bit more corny here!

[cardude007617]

oh god these jokes are bad.............

[Upshift]

Originally Posted by cardude007617

oh god these jokes are bad.............

No

they are corny


and it's all better then fighting, although you guys arguing is excellent popcorn entertainment

[Panacea]

Originally Posted by cardude007617

oh god these jokes are bad.............

Oh who shoved the corn husk up your ass?

[PhantomLover007]

Yep. This thread had frittered away...