e85

[peppermill]

Originally Posted by Pete

Mine starts up just like it did on gas.
You really need to do the injector mod.
It was a pain because I don't have much of garage these days so I had to do it in the driveway, but it was well worth the effort.

-Pete

Are you now up to 100% E85 on the new injectors?

[peppermill]

Originally Posted by Malaclypse

.... Yeah. Have fun when it explodes.

That's what others told me, 6,000 miles ago, and it still hasn't happened. I appreciate your concern though. That video was the only time I ever used starting fluid (not dangerous, btw), and the idea was to figure it out if it was a fuel mixture thing, or a timing thing. And I think it's both, because while it did start, (fluid helped) it didn't start well, and nearly stalled until the timing was subtracted out by the PCM.

Next things to try is to take a syringe and inject 20 cc of gasoline right in to one of the capped vacuum ports on the intake manifold and see what kind of result I get during a cold start. Then try with 20 cc of E85 on a different cold day.

I suspect that there's some hidden timing offset that is applied by the PCM to optimize high octane fuel, that doesn't get subtracted out during cranking. But I have no way of knowing other than what I've seen from watching the scan gage.

The amount of fuel at startup, at least pulse width wise, looks to be quite a bit. And the smell of alcohol out the exhaust just after cold start tells me there's at least a little bit of fuel getting sprayed in there. Again, the cold start problem didn't happen until the second consecutive tank of pure E85. Back earlier in the spring with E85 was E75, cold starts were fine. So I'm fairly confident I could solve the problem by blending in some more gasoline, but I really want to figure out what the problem is, exactly, before I run off and solve it.

This is all about the fun of learning, the discovery along the path to figuring something out.

And while driving, I've noticed that max timing happens just under 2K RPMs at about 20% throttle. Even going up my steep little driveway at 15 MPH I've seen 52.5 degrees of timing.

[Pete]

Originally Posted by peppermill

Are you now up to 100% E85 on the new injectors?

Yes, I have no issues.

[Pete]

Just to finish up on this topic.
I have finished the conversion to E85.
The car runs perfectly. (Lots of power on the booze)

In short what is needed is larger 28lb injectors of the trailblazer variety, and a tweak to the ECU's (VCM) injector flow rate table. At this point the cars behaves as it did on straight gas, only sounds better and has a bit more get up and go.

There is more than one way to get here, but this is the easiest.
Overall time to complete project - about a month including research and parts gathering.

Is ethanol the answer to this nations problems? No, but it is a start.
We need serious competition to OPEC. Oil will be $200 a barrel soon.

[AleroB888]

Originally Posted by Pete

Just to finish up on this topic.
I have finished the conversion to E85.
The car runs perfectly. (Lots of power on the booze)

In short what is needed is larger 28lb injectors of the trailblazer variety, and a tweak to the ECU's (VCM) injector flow rate table. At this point the cars behaves as it did on straight gas, only sounds better and has a bit more get up and go.

There is more than one way to get here, but this is the easiest.
Overall time to complete project - about a month including research and parts gathering.

Is ethanol the answer to this nations problems? No, but it is a start.
We need serious competition to OPEC. Oil will be $200 a barrel soon.

Sounds good, keep us posted...

At the altitude here cars run richer, and I might start experimenting as well. Hell, I used to spray methanol into the throttle body when under boost -- what you are doing sounds safer than that. But it could save me from having to use octane boosters, which are also expensive.

Btw, if you get into a situation where the car must sit for weeks, it is possible to drain the tank simply by siphoning, and put regular gas in for the storage.

[tejohnson]

Wow,

Interesting thread, and a long read...

First, welcome to the board Pepermill. It is interesting to see someone playing with E85. However, your method is a little risky Given you have worked on V8's and worked with LS1Tuner, detonation is detonation. The more over time, the more shock to the rotating assembly. I would imagine your bearings hate you by now, if not already by hearing a ever so slight knock at 3k. Does it go away at all? See copper flakes in the oil All joking aside, perhaps it would be wise (given you can afford 300 gallons of E85 and proper storage) to get a real WB02 and tuning software for the Grand Am. (HPTuners, or a DHP Powrtuner if you can find one for sale). That said, it will help you troubleshoot a little more scientifically. Further, would be able to tune accordingly, and adjust to help mitigate long term engine wear and damage. Also keep in mind that these cars have a fairly high compression ratio.

As for running E85 in a Grand Am, the tuning side is easy. Get a previously mentioned tuning package and go forth and make adjustments (it has been done by a few folks). As for it eating away at the fuel components, there is only a few concerns, but this may simply be my ignorance showing (as I am not a chemist). I would only worry about not eating away, but making brittle:

-Corrugated fuel hose in the pump assembly
-Fuel rail supply O ring
-Fuel Pressure Regulator O ring
-Fuel Pump in general

Will these items have fatigue issues over time. Who knows? I am asking the question, not being a smarta$$..

You have a plastic gas tank. Earlier Grand Ams have a metal one. Any concern of corrosion? All of the Fuel lines are metal, but not certain of the material. Any issues with corrosion over time?

I really wish there were E85 stations in the area, unfortunately there are not.

< politics >
As for the economics of E85, I can see why you are so "for" it. Given "Iowa" + "Farmland" = More $ inbound. Are you by chance in the farming industry? (given you have the ability for fuel storage, it is pretty common on any commercial farm) The down side to E85 is unfortunately how it is produced here in the US. Corn. Use more corn for E85, price of corn rises. Price of all alcohol made using corn rises. Corn starch prices rise. Corn Sugar prices rise. ( see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corn#Uses ) Perhaps you see my pattern, perhaps it is all nothing.

I still applaud the effort. Better to keep the $ here in the USA However, ethanol can be produced by anything that produces sugars. Look at Brazil, as previously mentioned, they use sugar. It can be made from trees, to grass, and weeds. From what I understand, there is research under way for a particular plant that produces significantly more sugars than even corn. Perhaps there is light at the end of the tunnel for the use of ethanol in a large way here in the US, but if it comes with unintended consequences, no thanks. I look forward to the next proposed solution. What ever happened to hydrogen fuel cell development? And I though Charles Beyer @ DHP was working on a Flux Capacitor.
< / politics >

[Mike Jung]

I wonder how peppermill's GA is running these days ?

[cardude007617]

id assume its not....

[torq455]

I tried a 50/50 mix of E85 and 87 octane. Lost 3-4 mpg as well as power. Unless tuned with added timing and CR, you'll save a few dollars at the pump, then make up for it with poor mileage.

[angrysk8r]

you'll get bad milage with e85 because you need more of it to maintain the proper a/f ratio

btw thread revival ftw