Just finished the most EXTREME front wheel drive N-body build ever!

[AaronGTR]

Still putting valve cover breathers on street cars too I see, . What a waste of money. Just buy a better car.

[geldartb]

holy crap that's insane. 48k to mod a 98 cutlass..i really hope this guy never gets sick of this thing.

[MilzyZ34]

Originally Posted by Madness10

So to spend 30-50k on a platform that is dead and possibly have to spend so much time in tuning and other things to keep this car running in top condition is horrendous and stupid. For that kind of money, you can build a sub 10 second LS motor swap into any other platform that is still alive and still get excellent gas millage and be worth something. Was all the time and money worth losing customers and treating customers like crap and putting customers off for months? I personally have never ordered anything from you, nor will I ever, but the horror stories about your customer service all over the web is very poor, due to your more concern over your special built car.

This setup combined with the right fuel pump, and some traction would be capable of a sub 10 second pass, and it should still be capable of 30 or more mpg. Do you have to spend 30-50k to get there, not necessarily, but if a customer says "I want this, this, this, this, and this", who am I to tell him I won't do it. He asked me if it needed a billet crankshaft in the beginning, and I said no, the stock one is forged, it's not going to be a problem, but he wanted it, so that's what it's got.

The build took a couple months longer than I thought. Seems like a long time, but considering the huge amount of work done to this car, and the fact that no one before had successfully done a swap like this before in the whole world, I don't think it was drastically over the time frame. I spent my time and a good chunk of my own money on this project because I am a man of my word. I quoted the customer a price for the job. The job went over that budget. I didn't charge the customer a dollar more than what I quoted, and I didn't rush the job. I took the time it took to do it the right way, the first time, and at a level of quality to satisfy my need for perfection. You ask if doing that is worth losing customers or upsetting customers. If anything, telling customers about this project, and showing them the results of that work, combined with the fact that I stuck with my word reinforces the reason my customers bring their cars here. They want that same treatment and meticulousness for perfection.

[01OhioAlero]

I dont see anyone else trying to advance our aftermarket? If you guys dont like the price then dont buy it. Its not like he took a project then at end said ok give me 40k. The customer WANTED it. He now has a one of a kind build and potentially if he adds more fuel, the most powerful 60v6 out there. I have bought from Milzy before and will continue too, cause I dont mind waiting for products. No one else does any other stuff and all of his stuff I have received has been top notch quality.

[geldartb]

there was crap for camshafts before WOT-Tech started offering them.. would i do that again maybe but i would move to a state that either has no inspection or one that isn't as anal as mass. but it probably wouldn't be an n-body. if i get back into the car thing it's going to be a caprice wagon.

[AaronGTR]

Originally Posted by 01OhioAlero

I dont see anyone else trying to advance our aftermarket? If you guys dont like the price then dont buy it. Its not like he took a project then at end said ok give me 40k. The customer WANTED it. He now has a one of a kind build and potentially if he adds more fuel, the most powerful 60v6 out there. I have bought from Milzy before and will continue too, cause I dont mind waiting for products. No one else does any other stuff and all of his stuff I have received has been top notch quality.

Problem is, most people never receive anything from him. I've heard a lot of people complain that they ordered and paid for parts from him, never received them after twice the amount of time from when they were promised, then could never get a hold of him. Not very good business practice IMO.


Also, if he knew what the engine and the turbos were capable of, he should have known what the fuel requirements were going to be and advised the customer of such before the build was started. That's poor planning.

[Madness10]

Originally Posted by AaronGTR

Problem is, most people never receive anything from him. I've heard a lot of people complain that they ordered and paid for parts from him, never received them after twice the amount of time from when they were promised, then could never get a hold of him. Not very good business practice IMO.

I know there was a person, can't remember what his name is, that had his car there for a year and Miltzy did absolutely nothing to it and this person had to force his hand to pick up his car in pieces.

[tw0123]

That was the alero in for a 5 speed swap that was there for almost3 years, paid over 3k and basically got the f body brakes and a half assef tune

[02Monte]

I’ve found over the years that if you want something bad enough there will always be someone willing to sell it to you.
I got caught up in the whole “go fast” craze with the 60 degree V6 community many years ago.
Spent way too much money with Ben,Mike , PFYC, RSM,.... you can just about name the company and or website.
The money I spent on special and custom stuff was and still is obscene.
At the end of the day , the money would have been better spent on a used car with an LS V8 and 1/10 of the cash spent on the 60 degree V6 platform and I would have been faster with more left over in my pocket.
But when you are in the moment it’s hard not to get caught up in the moment and again....... there is always someone willing to sell you whatever it is you think you need.
Anyone want a set of unused MMS stage 2 3500 heads, TCE TB, TCE DOUBLE Roller TC or RSM supercharger Kit?
You get my point?
I’ve got all that and more

[MilzyZ34]

Originally Posted by geldartb

there was crap for camshafts before WOT-Tech started offering them.. would i do that again maybe but i would move to a state that either has no inspection or one that isn't as anal as mass. but it probably wouldn't be an n-body. if i get back into the car thing it's going to be a caprice wagon.

I started selling camshafts in 2004. Wot-tech didn't exist back then. It was just a guy running 60degreev6.com. Our camshaft specs haven't changed since back then, and a lot of the records that were set around 2004 are still there today.

[MilzyZ34]

Originally Posted by AaronGTR

Problem is, most people never receive anything from him. I've heard a lot of people complain that they ordered and paid for parts from him, never received them after twice the amount of time from when they were promised, then could never get a hold of him. Not very good business practice IMO.


Also, if he knew what the engine and the turbos were capable of, he should have known what the fuel requirements were going to be and advised the customer of such before the build was started. That's poor planning.

Think about what you're saying. "Most people never receive anything..." Do you really think that more than half of the people who order are parts never receive anything. That's ridiculous. Now I will say that some of the parts we sell go on back order, and we have to wait to ship parts until they come in, but EVERYONE gets shipped there parts. I don't do business like some of the other companies out there.

This build started out as us doing a 3500 swap, and our N-body turbo kit. It then evolved into a 3900 swap, and eventually into a twin turbo upgrade. When I mentioned this upgrade would need more parts to keep up, the customer didn't want to invest any more money at the moment, we would deal with this issue later. When later came, and it was time to finish the build, the customer did not want to defer from the buildsheet in any way as I mentioned above. I started my opinion, but my hands were tied. We had agreed to the parts list from before, so that's what we used. So it's a shame that we had to use a fuel pump that wasn't adequate, but if you really think this was poor planning, you don't know me at all. I plan everything.

[Vegeta]

2004 I made WOT-Tech official. Sold OBD1 chips and EGR adapters through FFP and FDP from 2001-2003 as an enthusiast and co owner of 60degreev6.com. Sold cam regrinds, and then comp lobes, and now offer more options thanks to more compatible lobes being available. I put in the effort to constantly improve what is available for these engines.

How many people not running your parts have asked you to list their car on your website to show they hold the record? Can you put WOT-Tech down for holding the record for 3.4/3500 swapped Opel GT? Thanks buddy.

[MilzyZ34]

Originally Posted by tw0123

That was the alero in for a 5 speed swap that was there for almost3 years, paid over 3k and basically got the f body brakes and a half assef tune

I love when people exaggerate like crazy, it makes it easy to prove them wrong. We did have a customer with an Alero who had bought a car someone had tried to make into a 5-speed, but was not successful, and he wanted us to finish the car. I told him we were very busy, and would not be able to touch the car until atleast spring. He said he was not in a hurry at all. He asked how much, and I said I would have to dig into it and see what's wrong with it, and that I hadn't done a 5-speed yet, so if we had to make custom parts they would be more expensive because we would be prototyping new parts. I told him the bill would be open ended, but I would keep him posted on what I found out when I actually started working on it. I don't recall the exact date he dropped off the car, but according to e-mails, we considering him dropping it off on Saturday August 23rd, 2014, and he made a deposit of $500 when he dropped the car off. When we were getting closer to starting on the work, he sent his friend over to put more money down. He said he would drop off $800, but he dropped off $300. While he was here, the guy was pulling parts off the car to sell like the aftermarket hood. I don't remember everything from back then, but he would tell me he lost his job, and he was having issues with alimony and/or child support, etc and it would be a little while before he could make payments. There was also a time where he was supposed to pay a payment of $500, said it was in the mail. Then I said well it's been two weeks, we still haven't received the check. Are you going to mail another or can we do a credit card over the phone. Then he said he would have to pay some other time. It's hard to make a guy's car a priority when I'm not confident he can pay his bill. On top of all this, I had to have an emergency hernia surgery in mid-January 2015. I was unable to work for a period of 3 months, and was managing the shop from my house while my employees worked on the projects, and shipped orders. Anyways he made a payment at the end of April for $400, and had told me that he had enough money to finish the project, so we began working on the car around the late May/early June. First we had to figure out how to get the car in the shop. He had brakes on the car that were too big and the calipers hit the wheels keeping the car from being able to roll. So we had to remove the calipers in the parking lot just to get the car to roll. Also, when the car got here, it was filled to the rim with parts inside and in the trunk. Someone had pulled the dash eventhough you don't have to pull the dash to do a manual conversion, all the interior panels, exhaust stuff, etc filled the car. Just trying to give you guys a mental picture of the car. Once we got the car in the ship and on the rack, I inspected the car, and made a list of all the things wrong with it. I'll copy and paste the list of what we found below. Then I got to work on knocking out some of the things on that list while it was on the rack. Then I had a big project in that needed the rack, I forget which car it was, but I knew it would be on there a couple months. So I moved the Alero into the area in front of the rack in my main hallway there, and worked on the car on up on 4 jackstands. Then it was time to figure out the shifter, since I saw this as the biggest hurdle of the conversion. I needed to make the shifter/cables/etc work for the car, and was told that the customer had all the parts from the donor car which if I recall was a 1989 Cavalier 5-speed. I took his word that they were all in the car because it was pretty full, but once I had unloaded all the contents of the car, it was evident that they were not in there. Knowing the customer was on an extremely tight budget, I asked what he wanted me to do. Does he want to source a shifter and ship it here, or does he want to pay me $75 per hour to drive to a junkyard and find one for him. He said he knew a guy who had one, and would send it to me. Meanwhile I did things like remove and replace the clutch pedal, and stuff like that, and got as much done as I could without the shifter stuff, assuming he would be sending it soon. Sometime before Sept 8th, he asked me for an update, and I told him I'm still waiting on this shifter parts he said he would get me, and that I needed them to move forward. I waited another 6 weeks for the parts to arrive, but they never did, so I moved the car back outside to make room for us to work on other cars. Then I received an e-mail from the customer on December 11th, stating he finally had located some parts. If memory serves, they arrived in mid January. Then In February are busy season came again, and we were non-stop for a long time. The customer was wanting to push and get this project done soon. I needed assurance that I would be paid when the project was done, so on November 7 2016, I e-mailed him this ...

-----------------------------

Just wanted to re-cap our discussion from Friday last week.

We agree that a total of $1200 was paid to Milzy Motorsports towards the project to date.* I'm attaching a list of the current expenses.* Anything marked "estimate" is not yet completed.* This list of parts and labor is open-ended until the project is finished* Once the car is finished I will update and finalize the list, itemizing all parts, materials, and labor expenses.* We can begin work immediately to finish the project, and start as early as tomorrow.* In order to keep the project from stalling, we will need to receive a payment of atleast $500 by 11-16-16, and another of atleast $500 by 11-30-16.* After the vehicle is completed, we will give you 60 days to fully pay off the remainder owed.* All payments we'll need to be made in the form of cash, money order, cashier's check, or credit card over the phone.

If you cannot make both $500 payments on time, then we'll stop all work on the vehicle, and invoice you to the amount owed at that date.* A storage fee of $25 per day will go into effect until the invoice is paid, and vehicle picked up.* After 90 days of storage, we will file paperwork for an abandoned vehicle.

If we finish the car, and you are not able to pay for the entire amount on the invoice 60 days after completion, a storage fee of $25 per day will go into effect.* 30 days after the storage fees start, the vehicle will have been stored for 90 days, and we will file for an abandoned vehicle.

I'm not trying to scare you away with those last two paragraphs, but I need to make sure we're both on the same page.* I have no desire to gain ownership of your car.* I only want to finish the project and quickly because as I mentioned on the phone, I will have no extra time after this for about 6 months or more.

Since we're not set to receive payment from you until Wednesday, I need your acknowledgement of this e-mail, and agreement to the terms above to move forward.* As I said, if I have your approval, I can start as early as tomorrow.* If you agree to the terms above, simply e-mail back "I agree", and we'll get started.

---------------------------------------

He replied "I agree" on the same day.

On November 9th, however, I came to learn that the customer still had not got the title from the pervious owner, and that the vehicle was still in their name. I told him this was pretty much a deal-breaker, and e-mailed him this when he asked why I couldn't continue working on his car ...

------------------------
You technically are not the legal owner of that car.* You may say you've got a bill of sale, or whatever else, but at the end of the day, the title determines ownership.* Right now, we're about even as far as money paid and work done.* After these payments, I'm going to be upside-down on the car.* If something goes down, and this car gets ripped back by the previous owner, I've now bought all these parts and done all this labor, and don't have an agreement with the actual owner, and now I'm out of pocket all that money and labor.* I'm not really comfortable with that.* All I said was sort this out soon so that I don't have to worry about getting stiffed or sued or both.
---------------------------------

So then I had to go back and forth with my lawyer to discuss the best options, and I decided to have the customer sign a contract stating that they would be personally responsible for any amount owed, and e-mailed this to them on November 28th. This is also the date when the customer stated I needed to promise the car would be done by December 31st. I said I could try to have it done by then, but could not guarantee it. He couldn't accept this, so he decided to breach our agreement. I was nice and cordial to him when he picked up his car, I even helped him load it on the trailer, and gave him 60 days to finish paying his bill.

[MilzyZ34]

Here is the invoice and list of problems for the aborted project ...

PARTS Price
N-body clutch switch - AC Delco 98.80
F-body brakes 300.00
Grade 10.9 bolt for side transmission mount 5.00
AC Delco spring clamp for upper radiator hose at engine (clamp at radiator was re-useable) 5.00
AC Delco upper radiator hose - PN 22680642 38.00
AC Delco lower radiator hose - PN 22647232 35.00
AC Delco LF brake hose 34.85
AC Delco RF brake hose 34.85
AC Delco LR brake hose 30.00
AC Delco RR brake hose 30.00
AC Delco clip-on nuts for clutch switch (pair) 5.00
used bolt for front engine mount - AC Delco 2.00

Total Parts (not finalized yet) 618.50

LABOR
Description Hours Cost
remove calipers in parking lot to make car roll, move into shop, put on rack 1.5 112.50
install new F-body brakes - rotors, pads, calipers 1.5 112.50
assess work needed for vehicle, make list 1 75.00
move car back outside after 2 months of waiting for parts to arrive 1 75.00
move car back inside shop, put on rack 1 75.00
remove all parts and pieces stored in interior of car, lay out and organize 1 75.00
remove transmission side mount and bracket, install correct length bolt and shaved washer, use die to straighten out threads on welded-on all-thread studs for mount, install mount 2.5 187.50
install 4 brake hoses - 1/2 hr each 2 150.00
bleed brakes 1 75.00
remove heater hoses from heater core, cut off ~1.5" of hose to increase clearance from hoses to headers, reinstall with pring clamps in proper position 0.75 56.25
remove two idler pulleys and water pump pulley from engine, sand off rust build-up on pulleys, replace bolt on front engine mount during 1 75.00
install clutch switch 0.5 37.50
tighten bellhousing bolts 0.5 37.50
install upper radiator hose, trim radiator side to clearance for headers. Includes remove and replace battery tray 0.5 37.50
install lower radiator hose 0.5 37.50
remove steering wheel, install steering wheel (abort dash installation) 0.5 37.50

install misc parts, hook up grounds, bend fuel lines, fill fluids to make engine start 1.5 112.50
flash custom PCM for 5-speed conversion, includes MMS performance tune 1 150.00



put all of customers parts back into vehicle, put tires back on, etc 0.5 37.50
Total Labor 1556.25

FLUIDS AND MATERIALS
transmission fluid - AC Delco 12345349 - 3qts 79.92
brake fluid 20.00
Dexcool coolant - 4 gallons mixed 40.00
5qts 10w30 oil, PF52 oil filter 24.50
powersteering fluid 10.00
brake clean 10.00
shop rags 3.00
lube for serpentine belt 1.00

gas - 5 gallons 91 octane 12.70

Total Fluids and Materials 201.12




TOTAL 2174.75



> = completed


Results of Inspection/Problems with car/work required
vehicle arrived with dashboard, console, seats many interior parts removed. All major parts appear to be present, stored inside vehicle
> vehicle arrived with over-sized front brakes too big for wheels, car will not roll. Need to remove front brakes to roll vehicle.
make Alero shifter/shift cables work with 1988 cavalier transmission, fabricate shift cable bracket
install clutch master cylinder
adapt line or make custom line to connect master cylinder to slave cylinder on transmission
> transmission side mount not fully tightened down, bolt is way too long, gap between mount and lower mount bracket, need to remove mount, tighten bolts, install new bolt with spacer
transmission rear mount non-existent, may not need if front mount is strong enough, have to drive vehicle to determine
transmission front mount extremely weak, poorly designed. Need to reinforce mount/fabricate new one
> bellhousing bolts loose
repair TPS connector
> EVAP missing bolt
> trim heater tubes at firewall to provide clearance for headers
need VSS pigtail compatable with transmission
> install F-body front brakes to replace brakes to replace over-sized brakes, customer's friend picked up old brakes
> RR brake hose leaking, customer requests replace all 4 with OEM replacement hoses
> bleed brakes
> transmission completely empty of fluid
intermediate shaft bracket appears to be weakly designed, may need reinforcement. Need to drive vehicle to determine.
> water pump pulley, two idler pulleys have excessive rust build-up, need to be removed, rust ground off, and re-installed to avoid belt damage
> neutral safety switch missing
rear lateral and trailing arms bushings dry-rotted, all arms
front control arms bushings dry-rotted, both sides
> charge battery, may need to replace if doesn't hold charge
install dashboard, console, seats, instrument cluster, all other interior parts
transmission conversion still needs all necessary wiring, including neutral safety, VSS, reverse lights, etc, and delete automatic transmission wiring
pressure test cooling system prior to installing dashboard just in case heater core is leaking
fuse box bracket has been cut/modified. Fuse box may not stay put in bracket, need to replace bracket if that's the case
recommend modified heater tube to avoid leakage at "looped" throttle body bypass lines
> upper radiator hose leaking, needs replaced, hitting headers. Need to install new radiator hose, trim to fit for clearance.
> lower radiator hose appears to be too long. Needs more clearance at AC compressor, appears to be too long vertically because collapsing. Need to remove hose, trim to fit, reinstall.
later find lower radiator hose to be wrong part number, install correct hose, no trimming necessary, perfect fit.
oil pan leaking
fuel lines dangerously close to headers at rubber section, need to carefully bend out of the way to avoid melting and engine fire
pinch welds and frame rails have extensive damage from improper jacking/lifting vehicle
A/C lines touching front header, need to carefully bend aluminum lines to provide clearance
wheel speed sensor wires need multiple clips to keep wires from hitting axles
inner fender liners missing misc fasteners
> front engine mount has wrong bolt, too short
> tune PCM

[MilzyZ34]

Originally Posted by Vegeta

2004 I made WOT-Tech official. Sold OBD1 chips and EGR adapters through FFP and FDP from 2001-2003 as an enthusiast and co owner of 60degreev6.com. Sold cam regrinds, and then comp lobes, and now offer more options thanks to more compatible lobes being available. I put in the effort to constantly improve what is available for these engines.

How many people not running your parts have asked you to list their car on your website to show they hold the record? Can you put WOT-Tech down for holding the record for 3.4/3500 swapped Opel GT? Thanks buddy.

I wasn't aware you were in business back then, my mistake. I think I vaguely remember a time where your store might have been ran off of a link on 60degreev6?

I do think that there should be a complete record list posted somewhere, even for cars outside of the normal stuff, and if this was something posted on my site, I would give credit where it's due if I don't hold a particular record. I honestly think that healthy competition fuels improvement in motorsports

[02Monte]

The Devil is in the details and I think Mike won this measuring contest
Stay tuned

[MilzyZ34]

So I'm sitting here, talking with an employee about this whole situation, trying to figure out the gap January and November 2016, and I remembered that the customer was actually going to sell the vehicle to someone else, and have them take over the project. Waiting for this to pan out was one of the reasons the car sat during this time, this on top of course of us having to all the other projects. I don't remember all of them, but I remember having to do three 3500 swaps in a week, two Supercharged 3800 swaps into two Monte Carlo SS's in a week, plus all the other stuff.

Oh, and by the way, that "half-assed tune" ... We had just done 3 6-speed Aleros within a year, and used those tunes as the backbone for his tune, plus some different tuning for the VSS since it's a 5-speed not a 6. It still may have needed a couple "tweaks" to the AFR to account for the differences from one MAF sensor to another, but since we never finished the car, we couldn't drive it on the street. In digging through these e-mails though, I did find evidence that eventhough the customer decided not to have us finish the car, I did go out of my way to make sure that the engine atleast ran by the time it left, so the customer could hear it start up.

[02Monte]

Originally Posted by tw0123

That was the alero in for a 5 speed swap that was there for almost3 years, paid over 3k and basically got the f body brakes and a half assef tune

Please see above ^^^

😂

[tw0123]

Oh believe me, i saw all the emails and invoice...

After the car was picked up it was completed with fabricated parts by someone else in less than 3 months outside in another guy's backyard after his regular job...

This guy spews a lot and people see right through it... There's enough complaints out there, not on a basically dead website that supports his business... I've formed my opinion and won't change it... I'll never deal with him period.

[Madness10]

Originally Posted by tw0123

Oh believe me, i saw all the emails and invoice...

After the car was picked up it was completed with fabricated parts by someone else in less than 3 months outside in another guy's backyard after his regular job...

This guy spews a lot and people see right through it... There's enough complaints out there, not on a basically dead website that supports his business... I've formed my opinion and won't change it... I'll never deal with him period.

Hey, Tim. Who was it that didn't receive his parts in over a year and had to pay a restocking fee for parts that he never received?