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Old 08-24-2014, 08:02 PM   #1
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Weight reduction/balance...

Getting oh so more involved with autocrossing and given that I'm stuck in a class way to high for the GA to be in due to the engine swap I was interested in weight reduction and balancing the car out some aswell as maybe getting around to intstall those sway bars on the group buy 2 years ago now...

So some of my main questions are:

Did Sik really have CF fenders?
What was the lowest weight you know that a GA has gotten down to?(realistic here no tube rwd drag GA's)
CF trunk>CF hood? what are the actual weight savings of those?
What does stock 5 spoke non fake chromes weigh?
I recall the weight distribution being around 60 front 40 rear? Is there a left/right bias ?
If I go all out dedicated autox how much negative camber can I throw in up front?
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Old 08-24-2014, 08:30 PM   #2
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Take out rear seats, get light weight aluminum seats if you are that dedicated as well. Remove carpet, radio, spare tire, scissor jack.

I know people will be against this. But if you remove the ac compressor, condenser, dryer, all lines, and run a shorter pulley with the (I think beretta idler pulley) to make up for the shorter belt that all total is like 30-40 lbs if you combine everything together. The compressor itself is pretty heavy.


And also weight savings on a cf hood compared to stock I can tell you the custom "bubble hood" I have for the alero is 100% fiberglass.... that hood I can pick up with one hand at ease.. it literally weighs 8-15 lbs total. So the savings from stock are HUGE.
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Old 08-24-2014, 11:49 PM   #3
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Buy a better car to race with.

If you are having fun with it, have fun with it... but don't waste a ton of money trying to make it light. You will find it's difficult and expensive because no one makes parts. It will all have to be custom. If you had something like a civic or miata, well everyone races those and they make tons of parts for them, so they will be cheap AND effective.

Don't try too hard to turn your car into something that in the long run it really doesn't have much potential for.
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Old 08-25-2014, 06:17 AM   #4
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Dont know what the stock hood weighs but I know the CF hood is around 10lbs..when I got mine the cardboard bubble wrap and 1x3 frame built around it weighed 12lbs including the hood.. I was figuring a couple pounds for the wood and cardboard..
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Old 08-25-2014, 10:31 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sleepyalero View Post
Take out rear seats, get light weight aluminum seats if you are that dedicated as well. Remove carpet, radio, spare tire, scissor jack.

I know people will be against this. But if you remove the ac compressor, condenser, dryer, all lines, and run a shorter pulley with the (I think beretta idler pulley) to make up for the shorter belt that all total is like 30-40 lbs if you combine everything together. The compressor itself is pretty heavy.


And also weight savings on a cf hood compared to stock I can tell you the custom "bubble hood" I have for the alero is 100% fiberglass.... that hood I can pick up with one hand at ease.. it literally weighs 8-15 lbs total. So the savings from stock are HUGE.
Yeah the usual stuff until its full on race car which I don't intend to go for so interior is staying but lighter seats is defiantly in the plans. Considering removal of power seats as they are slow as balls anyways. Also considering swapping to manual windows but I do enjoy that luxury and idk how much weight that would save, once again I think that would be full on race car with lexan windows :P

And I have something more important to go in place of the A/C then the idler pulley.

I just thought I remembered reading somewhere that a CF trunk lid saves more then a CF hood. But there are more hoods then trunks out there. Kind of want both anyways or at least the hood.


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Originally Posted by AaronGTR View Post
Buy a better car to race with.

If you are having fun with it, have fun with it... but don't waste a ton of money trying to make it light. You will find it's difficult and expensive because no one makes parts. It will all have to be custom. If you had something like a civic or miata, well everyone races those and they make tons of parts for them, so they will be cheap AND effective.

Don't try too hard to turn your car into something that in the long run it really doesn't have much potential for.
What are you talking about Aaron? There is a race series named after our cars?? They are race cars!

The car is staying and it is being built regardless. I'm in this deep already there is no backing out and I don't want to. I have a ridiculous attachment to this grocery getter. Something about sitting in the ****pit with the stereo slightly turned towards you, that Borla growl, those boobs just enticing you to scan them, and the fact that there wont be one around like the one I will have.

I guess I'm looking at all of this in the long run something I would have asked further into the progression of this car but do to recent activities it peaked my interest right now. I do plan on getting another car dedicated for autox because right now my car isn't competitive. It is fun to throw around on stock suspension with toyo R1R's and roll like crazy and be called the body roll master though .

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Dont know what the stock hood weighs but I know the CF hood is around 10lbs..when I got mine the cardboard bubble wrap and 1x3 frame built around it weighed 12lbs including the hood.. I was figuring a couple pounds for the wood and cardboard..
Thanks. I gotta finish paying for vacation and I will let you know how much it really weighs
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Old 08-25-2014, 05:58 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by young gun View Post
Getting oh so more involved with autocrossing and given that I'm stuck in a class way to high for the GA to be in due to the engine swap I was interested in weight reduction and balancing the car out some aswell as maybe getting around to intstall those sway bars on the group buy 2 years ago now...

So some of my main questions are:

Did Sik really have CF fenders?
What was the lowest weight you know that a GA has gotten down to?(realistic here no tube rwd drag GA's)
CF trunk>CF hood? what are the actual weight savings of those?
What does stock 5 spoke non fake chromes weigh?
I recall the weight distribution being around 60 front 40 rear? Is there a left/right bias ?
If I go all out dedicated autox how much negative camber can I throw in up front?
Yes.
I don't know that anyone has ever weighed their cars post mods.
Having owned both parts I would say the hood was a bigger weight savings.
Would assume the difference is negligible.
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Old 08-25-2014, 06:39 PM   #7
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I've actually been wondering the same thing since I've been building my project grand am. Isn't the curb weight of a grand am 3100~ lbs? Or am I way off? All I know is that while stripping this grand am I've removed just over 50# of random sound and foam deadener and gunk. It really is surprising how much they thought about road noise.

Also as I've read the 5 speed is about 100lbs lighter compared to the auto.
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Old 08-25-2014, 07:42 PM   #8
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I've actually been wondering the same thing since I've been building my project grand am. Isn't the curb weight of a grand am 3100~ lbs? Or am I way off? All I know is that while stripping this grand am I've removed just over 50# of random sound and foam deadener and gunk. It really is surprising how much they thought about road noise.

Also as I've read the 5 speed is about 100lbs lighter compared to the auto.
Coupe: 3,066 lb
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Old 08-25-2014, 08:04 PM   #9
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I like how the sedan is only like 50 lbs heavier.
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Old 08-26-2014, 08:57 AM   #10
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Dont know what the stock hood weighs but I know the CF hood is around 10lbs..when I got mine the cardboard bubble wrap and 1x3 frame built around it weighed 12lbs including the hood.. I was figuring a couple pounds for the wood and cardboard..

I seriously doubt that hood weighs 8 lbs. A real CF hood, made with multiple layers of pre-preg CF and autoclaved to remove the excess resin, would weigh about 8-12 lbs depending on the car and size of the hood. I remember reading an article where a trunk made that way for a miata was about 8 lbs.

No one makes body parts like that for the grand am though. All the "CF" hoods are just a single layer of wet resin lay up CF over top of a fiberglass hood and just for looks. The factory hood is about 39-40 lbs iirc. The SD hood I have was 28 lbs and the Cerious Performance CF sc/t hood I have is 23 lbs (both with some minor work but close to stock weight). The other CF hood is probably somewhere close to that.


The real problem is finding any of these parts anymore. It's a dead car and a dead market, and everything has been discontinued. You'll be lucky to even find them used.

Get some light weight wheels for the car, maybe swap in the aluminum front control arms and move the battery to the trunk. That will help balance the front/ rear weight balance a little and make a noticeable difference in handling as well as every day ride quality on the road. Anything beyond that, and steps like stripping out sound deadening etc., will have a very limited effect and make the car less enjoyable to drive. And any other lighter parts you want will be hard to find or have to be custom made, and you'll pay out the ass for very minimal gains. That's why I say if you really want a car you can have fun with at the track, get something with more potential for it... something with cheaper parts available and a better design to start with. The grand am chassis was not designed to handle from the factory. There's only so much you can do when you are limited by the chassis design, suspension geometry, etc. There is no easy way to adjust front and rear camber and such. You don't want to start getting into things like having to make custom control arms and camber plates, revising suspension points, getting custom ball joints to fix roll center, etc etc. Need an engineering degree just to figure that stuff out.
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Old 08-26-2014, 02:50 PM   #11
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I seriously doubt that hood weighs 8 lbs. A real CF hood, made with multiple layers of pre-preg CF and autoclaved to remove the excess resin, would weigh about 8-12 lbs depending on the car and size of the hood. I remember reading an article where a trunk made that way for a miata was about 8 lbs.

)
the shipped weight of the hood was 12lbs so believe what you want i don't really care.

it came from some place in canada. it was part of that group buy on GAOC..
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Old 08-26-2014, 06:10 PM   #12
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Doesn't mean it was accurate. Did you weigh it?

How much did it cost? If it was a real pre-preg hood in a small run custom batch for a car like this... would have cost over $1k.
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Old 08-26-2014, 06:17 PM   #13
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I got my CF hood from extremepartd.ca which is from canada the box it came in said 13 lbs and price was $600ish after shipping was added
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Old 08-26-2014, 06:38 PM   #14
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I got my CF hood from extremepartd.ca which is from canada the box it came in said 13 lbs and price was $600ish after shipping was added

Was it a plain style hood? And how is it constructed? Is it CF on both sides? Does it have a factory style framing molded into the bottom or is it flat? Is the finish glossy like clear coat, or is it dull/matte?

A true pre-preg hood has no glossy top coat because that adds weight, and the finish is dull.

What I'm getting at with the shipping weight is... that might not be the weight of the actual hood. A lot of these places that bulk ship have deals worked out and get cheaper prices from shipping comps. They might put 12 or 13 lbs on the package because that is the price bracket they are paying... but that's not how much the hood weighs. 12 lbs is ridiculously light for a hood that size and there's no way they are getting that with normal construction methods.
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Old 08-26-2014, 07:46 PM   #15
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its a SC/T style CF hood. its CF on the top and its fiber glass underneath molded to look like the underside of the stock metal hood. the finish is glossy.

I would weigh mine but it was a PITA the mount/allign the first time so dont really wanna do that again.

but I can tell you it was deff lighter in weight then the factory steel hood I took off
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Old 08-26-2014, 08:00 PM   #16
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Well yeah, that's pretty much a given... not hard to do.
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Old 08-26-2014, 08:04 PM   #17
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maybe erik can weigh his, i know he has a CF SC/T laying around
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Old 08-27-2014, 10:38 AM   #18
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Quote:
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Yes.
I don't know that anyone has ever weighed their cars post mods.
Having owned both parts I would say the hood was a bigger weight savings.
Would assume the difference is negligible.
Thanks boss.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AaronGTR View Post
The real problem is finding any of these parts anymore. It's a dead car and a dead market, and everything has been discontinued. You'll be lucky to even find them used.

Get some light weight wheels for the car, maybe swap in the aluminum front control arms and move the battery to the trunk. That will help balance the front/ rear weight balance a little and make a noticeable difference in handling as well as every day ride quality on the road. Anything beyond that, and steps like stripping out sound deadening etc., will have a very limited effect and make the car less enjoyable to drive. And any other lighter parts you want will be hard to find or have to be custom made, and you'll pay out the ass for very minimal gains. That's why I say if you really want a car you can have fun with at the track, get something with more potential for it... something with cheaper parts available and a better design to start with. The grand am chassis was not designed to handle from the factory. There's only so much you can do when you are limited by the chassis design, suspension geometry, etc. There is no easy way to adjust front and rear camber and such. You don't want to start getting into things like having to make custom control arms and camber plates, revising suspension points, getting custom ball joints to fix roll center, etc etc. Need an engineering degree just to figure that stuff out.
I understand that its not meant to be a great handling car. Doesn't mean that it can't be improved in which I'm going to do anyways. College prohibits these things from happening right now.

That is the great part about having friends that are engineers! You don't have to be one yourself! But like I said I won't go that extreme but I just wanted to check to make sure there wasn't anything out there that I hadn't thought of.

Light weight wheels that fit big brakes? Check
Aluminum control arms + Poly bushings? Check
Coilovers? Check
Sway bars? Check
Modify rear lateral links? On the list
Modify rear trailing arms? On the list
STB's? On the list
Weight reduction in the form of: CF hood, CF trunk, Lightweight comfortable seats ( I think anything else will take away from what I want out of the car [IE: power windows, sound deadening, interior, etc.] and also be minimal gains that should be reserved for dedicated track cars.

Which leaves me what is the lightest weight brake set up to go with? or at least lightest rotor as that is the main part of momentum. I currently have GP GXP fronts is there a 2 piece rotor that I can use with them?

Quote:
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maybe erik can weigh his, i know he has a CF SC/T laying around
Not yet. Trying to finish paying off my vacation then I'm going to go pick it up.
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Old 08-27-2014, 10:53 AM   #19
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Thanks boss.



I understand that its not meant to be a great handling car. Doesn't mean that it can't be improved in which I'm going to do anyways. College prohibits these things from happening right now.

That is the great part about having friends that are engineers! You don't have to be one yourself! But like I said I won't go that extreme but I just wanted to check to make sure there wasn't anything out there that I hadn't thought of.

Light weight wheels that fit big brakes? Check
Aluminum control arms + Poly bushings? Check
Coilovers? Check
Sway bars? Check
Modify rear lateral links? On the list
Modify rear trailing arms? On the list
STB's? On the list
Weight reduction in the form of: CF hood, CF trunk, Lightweight comfortable seats ( I think anything else will take away from what I want out of the car [IE: power windows, sound deadening, interior, etc.] and also be minimal gains that should be reserved for dedicated track cars.

Which leaves me what is the lightest weight brake set up to go with? or at least lightest rotor as that is the main part of momentum. I currently have GP GXP fronts is there a 2 piece rotor that I can use with them?



Not yet. Trying to finish paying off my vacation then I'm going to go pick it up.
Funny thing that you mentioned lighter weight rotors. The 12" two piece set from Baer i just installed weighs 13.8lbs vs. 19.6lbs for the impala rotor.
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Old 08-27-2014, 10:54 AM   #20
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The 12 inch baer kit is 8.2lbs lighter then the fbody kit.
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