200 HP to the wheel N/A

[phantom505]

I understand that it would have to be RPM dependent. I was just trying to figure out what is the max was for say a 3.5L engine at say 6100 RPM for comparison's sake.

[KpazzH0ly]

Originally posted by GLH1985
There is no maximum theoretical HP for a given displacement.

Torque would be easier to theorize vs displacement (N/A).

HP is going to be variable because of RPM.

Example:

A 3.0L engine makes 200ft/lbs of torque. Now if that 3.0L engine is only efficient enought to make that torque to 5000RPM's it would be making a maximum of 190HP.

Now if you take that same 3.0L engine making 200ft/lbs of torque but now it is able to make it at 7500RPM's it would be making a maximum of 286HP.

That is why you couldn't accurately plug in a displacement and come up with a theoretical amount of HP.

I would gladly give up 1 liter of displacement for moving my torque curve up the RPM band by 2000RPM's.

The argument that torque wins races is false. HP wins races. With more HP and proper gearing you can make more effective wheel torque. Where the power meets the road. Its all about gearing and HP.

Im sorry but I would have to disagree with your last statement. HP comes with torque. How are you going to get anywhere with out torque. Honestly I dont want to argue. Its a matter of opinion. I'll just agree to disagree.

[matts]

i agree with kpazz. torque is what makes your car move initially. hp is an effect, but it becomes more dominant in the higher speeds. but you have to get to those higher speeds quicker for the HP to really take over

[phantom505]

Having large torque numbers is the exact same thing as saying greater low to mid end horse power. If you have a car that goes winds up to 8000 RPM and shift and never goes below 5300 RPM then yes HP can win the race. For anyone that shifts at say 6100 and kicks back to 4000 RPM then torque wins the race.

It can be summed up like this... the total area underneath the torque or HP curve (pick one when comparing any 2 cars) during the 1/4 is the most critical value. This is the main reason why I think turbos are better. Once I hit 260 wHP I will stay at a minimum of 260 wHP until I hit the end of the track. It has a slower start up, but you won't stay under 4000 RPM long enough to make it a major factor.

[GLH1985]

Originally posted by KpazzH0ly
Im sorry but I would have to disagree with your last statement. HP comes with torque. How are you going to get anywhere with out torque. Honestly I dont want to argue. Its a matter of opinion. I'll just agree to disagree.

The point is HP is a better measure of performance. Because with just using toque you only have half the information.

Wether you have alot of low end torque or a lesser amount on the top end. It all comes down to HP. How much HP are you making when you are making all that torque down below? The answer is not as much as if you were making that torque in the higher RPM band.

The more HP = more work being done. The more work being done = either more weight can be carried the same distance in the same amount of time, or the same weight can be carried the same distance in a shorter amount of time.

Torque does not answer this ratio, it is only an input to the answer, where HP is the ratio.

[95-GT]

actually, when it comes down to weight and how much something can carry, it comes down to torque numbers. Why do you think all trucks advertise how much torque they have?

[GLH1985]

Because they want to make more HP down low.

[KpazzH0ly]

first of all our cars wont be seeing top end numbers in a drag strip. What do ppl run like a 15 at 88 mph. I believe they are just getting into 3rd gear when they finish, now if they had more torque it would give them better numbers due to the fact they get out of gear sooner. Therefore 3rd gear would be getting into better rpm band for HP Another thing, its not this torque and HP thing that kills us, its our transmission. If you can set up the gears for your power band then you would be able to use all your power efficiently. Our cars dont get to see much HP use in the 1/4 mile, thats why I am saying torque is indeed very important. I guarantee if we had more torque and a better tranny you would see great numbers on the track.
*Torque helps you get throught the gears quicker. With a better tranny, more torque. You can get into ur o.d. gear on the track and let ur HP do what u want. But as for now, our tranny's suck.

[KpazzH0ly]

GLH1985 I can understand where you are coming from. I am going for school for this too. I haven't had an automotive class yet, Ive had diesel. ANd that is where the power is at. THey have torque at low numbers, and if they tune their tranny properly they have one fast car. Diesels are faster than Gas. and it all winds down to torque at low rpm.

im confused on how to get 200 whp dicussion turned into nissan talk, in my personal opinion, the 3400 la1 is not that hard to squeeze 200 hp , but just expensive, any engine can make power, just takes the green to do it, i have dropped a second by just putting on a pulley, CAI, a flowmaster muffler, and modifing the catalytic converter what makes it really hard is the aftermarket for this car is almost non-existant. im confused about something else, maybe you can explain, how using a certain type "fuel" such as nitrous oxide, makes a car non N/A, cause the car still breathes on its own to run?



just put on my custom 2.5" exhaust from the cat to a "side pipe" design, tell you how that works once the track opens

[phantom505]

If you don't think we have a very large aftermarket you need to look harder.

There are few items in the works that aren't "out" such as Comp cams and rockers, but pretty much everything else is obtainable or is not needed.

[aleroboy]

intake manifolds

[Sprucegagt]

Originally posted by phantom505
If you don't think we have a very large aftermarket you need to look harder.

There are few items in the works that aren't "out" such as Comp cams and rockers, but pretty much everything else is obtainable or is not needed.

I'll agree that our aftermarket is adequate for what most people need, but there are a few noticable exceptions. Like the previously mentioned cam, rockers, CNC ported heads and aftermarket intake manifolds (something with less material used for the LIM and a cleaned up runner and plenium design). All of this would be great additions.

[KpazzH0ly]

For the thing about Nitrous oxide. The reason that wouldn't be N/A is because you are still running regular gas, the nitrous is an additive that makes your car run much hotter. IF you were to say ur running High octane fuel, thats still N/A but seeing as nitrous still runs with gasoline, its an additive that adds boost. Hope that kinda explains it. That is at least the way I see it.
No seriouly we need more aftermarket. Not only beacause there are still things not covered for our cars, but more aftermarket, prices go down on parts that our out now. We have to pay like 300% more than some cars. Honestly what I really really want is a 5 spd, or a really good tranny upgrade (done to the power of my car). I keep on mentioning the transmission, am I not getting through to you guys?

[phantom505]

I guess I'm not getting through to you.... go read the transmission post. We have LSD and we have clutch packs. We can get anything for the transmission.

Like I said time and time again.... we can get anything, just name it.

BTW, that is a miserable description of N2O. It is basically an additional oxygen source. I have never run it, but I don't see why you should run hotter other than you are generating more power so you warm up a bit. The reality is N2O is VERY cold when sprayed. High pressure liquids that are opened into low pressure areas absorb heat because gas expansion requires heat.

I think the collective knowledge on this board on fuel chemistry could be written on a 3x5 card.

[phantom505]

What do you think you'll gain off an intake manifold anyway?

I'm working on that acutally, but I really don't see how the boosted crowd would care and I'm not sure what kind of gains you would see anyway.

[GLH1985]

Yep, the whole pupose to N20 is to add oxygen to the fuel/air mixture. That is the reason you will have higher cylinder head temps. You are running leaner. Plus more HP = more energy. Some of that energy is released as heat through the motor. This is a ratio that goes up with more HP that is made.

[aleroboy]

Originally posted by phantom505


BTW, that is a miserable description of N2O. It is basically an additional oxygen source. I have never run it, but I don't see why you should run hotter other than you are generating more power so you warm up a bit.

the only reason you would run hotter on nitrous is if you go lean.
as long as you have enough fuel added for the nitrous your temps will be virtually uneffected.
I've actually froze my throttle body before on the dyno with nitrous.
nitrous making your car run hotter is a common misconception

[phantom505]

That's what I thought. Anyhow, what gains did you expect to see with a different intake? I'm looking at ways to make the runners longer and a way to get air more evenly distributed throughout the engine....

[Sprucegagt]

Originally posted by phantom505
What do you think you'll gain off an intake manifold anyway?

I'm working on that acutally, but I really don't see how the boosted crowd would care and I'm not sure what kind of gains you would see anyway.

Not for sure what you would gain from an intake manifold. Very rough guess 5 HP peak.

Your right the boosted crowd would care less about an intake manifold but the N/A crowd would. Anyway isn't that what the thread is about.