Q for you Turbo Guys

[PACE]

^ OwN3D ! j/k I'll take it off

Originally Posted by PontiacGT2K

If Ecap can run a 13.7 with a lil spray and some dr's, then someone here sure as hell should be able to do better with boost and a built tranny, and hopefully some dr's.

Who is this ECAP person that you speak of?? He sounds like a super fast speed racer dude! And I heard he's a pimp!

[PontiacGT2K]

Originally Posted by PACE

^ OwN3D ! j/k I'll take it off




Who is this ECAP person that you speak of?? He sounds like a super fast speed racer dude! And I heard he's a pimp!

He's a fat fock from hillbilly-ville. Doesn't know jack **** about jack ****. I'd kick his ass if I ever met him. Total hoss. Raped me and took $900 from me in my sleep. That's right, he ghey.

[edit] BAh....on second thought I don't want to get pimp slapped by him again. He's a cool cat, too bad he's dyslexic (always spellin **** backwards)

[mcgavinz26]

Originally Posted by phantom505

If you are working with absolutely stock items you are absolutely right. But if I am getting custom work done, I'm sticking with the AUTO. For my purposes it is better. One simple reason is that when I hit full boost with a turbo with an auto, it stays at full boost all the way down the track. It doesn't drop off. Once I'm at WOT and stay at WOT, I'm boosted. A manual I would have to take my foot off the throttle a bit and I would loose boost.

A built auto can do good things, agreed. About losing boost when shifting, you should make full boost in most car, turbo or sc, from atleast 3krpms (or lower) to redline. When you shift and get into the next gear you should still be inside that powerband at full boost. So while you do lose boost for a split second, you will be right back at it when you get back on the throttle. Also, if you are good there are ways to power shift without using the clutch anyways. In an auto though, one not really built, it goes into somewhat of a neutral state anyways while shifting and not all power is put to the ground even though you are still on the gas. But if you get a shift kit (which I have for my auto and I love) you should get pretty good results. You will still lose a fair amount of power through the transmission though, unlike the manual. Anything I've ever read still indicates that there will always be more parasitic lose of power through an automatic compared to a manual setup. (Plus the 282 only weighs 90 lbs, I'm betting the 4t45 weighs atleast double.)

[phantom505]

Weight is an issue. However, manual might stronger stock, but they are much harder to build stonger. You can build a auto without any lock up and handle simply gross amounts of power. The fluid weight alone is probably 75lbs more.

Besides, auto are much more consistant. Turbos are throttle dependent. That split second of drop off will add a bunch of time on your run. I'm not sure, but I'm guessing you would have to shift 3 times on a typical 5 speed. That can mean 1.5 sec right there as oppose the closer to the .5 sec loss on a good auto. I would rather spend money on a great auto versus spending the time and money for a manual. I was considering it, but in the end I think we are better off with the auto, if it's done right.

I'm getting something a little bit better than just a shift kit.

[KpazzH0ly]

I dunno if you would loes that much time with a stick......

[phantom505]

Between shifting and catching back up on boost.... I think so. For NA cars it wouldn't as bad.

Only way to find out if someone actually gets a manual.

[mcgavinz26]

1.5 would be unlikely unless you are a bad driver. Like I said, boost will drop off, but only while you're not on the gas, if you even let off the gas, which you dont have to do when you shift, powershift that is. And besides, the transmission is geared to keep you in your powerband nicely, where you will be making maximum boost, from one shift to the next. Loss in boost due to shifting simply isn't an issue if you picked the right size turbo for you application and you know how to drive. The 282 is used on rear wheel drive Fieros with small block chevy's so you're talking easily 350hp and an equal amount of torque, at a minimum. That is with only a good clutch. Now, if you can even make use of 400+hp on a front wheel drive street car, maybe then you might want to invest in the automatic built up. Top dragsters use autos for a reason too, but not the same reason that a grandam would need them. For the amount of power you will make any real use of, about 300hp, its really a matter of choice on which transmission you want, but the manual weights less and requires less money. Plus replacing a broken 282 is VERY cheap, unlike a race prepped 4t45.

Like you said though, only way to tell really is if someone does it, which is unlikely. I wouldn't mind helping someone out in the metro detroit area if they were looking to do a manual conversion. I know quite a bit about the GM fwd v6 platforms.

[KpazzH0ly]

Well there are now a few guys very interested in doing it. And I always thought that it takes an automatic longer to shift into gears rather than a manual.Manual Tranny in 3400?

[mcgavinz26]

A manual shifts as quick as the driver makes it. An automatic can 'possibly' be built to shift faster than a human could ever shift with a conventional manual transmission. I know that as far as materials go on the 4T60e, to make it shift quick enough to squak 225/45ZR17 Eagle F1 tires with only running low 15s in the 1/4 takes under a couple hundred in parts if not under $100. Quite a bit of labor though.

[phantom505]

The problem is the human, not the manual transmission. Reaction time of people is pretty slow even in the best of situations compared to a computer or mechanical process. You can get some severely sharp shifts with autos. I like the consistancy of the auto. Besides, I'll get myself in trouble again, but I plan on going for just a touch more than the 320 HP at the crank that I'm at right (340 ft/lbs) of torque. I'm shooting on the stock engine to hit about 300 wHP, and then I'll most likely build an engine in time for next spring.

However, like almost everything on these boards people say they want and talk about things they can't get. I get them a turbo kit and then they say they want a twin. I tell them we can get a bulletproof 4T45 and they start talking about manuals. If John gets a manual conversion kit out then people will start talking about AWD or some BS like that. I garuntee it.

[nocutt]

Originally Posted by phantom505

The problem is the human, not the manual transmission. Reaction time of people is pretty slow even in the best of situations compared to a computer or mechanical process. You can get some severely sharp shifts with autos. I like the consistancy of the auto. Besides, I'll get myself in trouble again, but I plan on going for just a touch more than the 320 HP at the crank that I'm at right (340 ft/lbs) of torque. I'm shooting on the stock engine to hit about 300 wHP, and then I'll most likely build an engine in time for next spring.

However, like almost everything on these boards people say they want and talk about things they can't get. I get them a turbo kit and then they say they want a twin. I tell them we can get a bulletproof 4T45 and they start talking about manuals. If John gets a manual conversion kit out then people will start talking about AWD or some BS like that. I garuntee it.

Hahahaha!! That is classic Tom...you remember I told you...! I like to call it "the law of NO returns"...it is universal!! This is one reason why I give props to those who actually do and jerk the price up, why the heck not!?!?...at the end of the day few will come, few will support and then your R&D WILL become anothers plaform...that is about it!! In a couple of years...you will see what I mean, oh don't get me wrong ppl..blueprints are fine, (that is what the board is partly for)...especially when CREDIT is given to those that actually put a plan together, applied and fufilled this plan...on the other hand, well you get the picture...just enjoy your car, while it is still fun and you have the drive...

Everyone has his/hers ideology of what they think should be the 'better' drivetrain, however too much variable exist...when one starts to make enough power then a GM FWD drivetrain becomes the weaklink...and believe me there is much you can do besides heavy duty clutch...which is still limited in size (diameter wise)...so theoretically a manual will 'copout' when you start laying the rubber down!!...the way an auto 'wants' to deliver your engines power makes it the absolute better when comparing both drivetrains...the auto will outperform a manual when we are talking power period!! This becomes subjective when we talk about auto? there is the 40e, 45e, 60e, 65e...etc. But since we are talking within the spectrum of this board we will use the 40 series trannies as a base...yes they can be modified to handle more power when comparing it to a manual...at the end of the day though...a lot will really come to how one abuses his/her tranny...clutch dumps, neutral drops, reverse pops, burnouts and trying to achieve a 1.9X 60' will tend to drop the life expectancy of this aforementioned drivetrains...bulletproof or not...it is an inherent design...FWD and enough TQ+ stickies = trouble (when not done right...sorry I had to add that because as we all know there are exception to this rules...!)

Scott, M what are you doing here? bored at the other place too??
...NB: ABSOLUTE POWER CORRUPTS ABSOLUTELY...

[mcgavinz26]

Yeah, people want their cake but they never eat it when they get it. I was just at work and bored the other night. Now this thing emails me whenever there is a reply, which is fine with me, not many boards I follow very closely these days. Too many people argueing and getting too agressive about stupid things too often. But that happens off this computer all the time too. If anyone on here was making 300whp in a 99+ GA with a good suspension and big tires, they would be very happy. As far as a GM fwd V6 goes, thats a perfect target to go for. You would be able to beat newer mustang GTs all day, which is a perfect goal for a nice streetable car. Actually you could probably beat a lot of 4th gen F-bodys, especially automatics, or atleast hang with them. I konw everyone wants some insane performance, but sometimes you just need to be a little practical. THere comes a point where it just isn't worth the effort or money, even for the shock and originality value.

[fast_ga]

All i can say about all of this is: Money is the object! With enough money anything is possible, including putting a 99+ GA with a 3400 in the 12's, or 10's or whatever. If i had tons of money id go for it! Think about it...... with enough money you could build up a 3400 beyond belief, even if parts are not available, with enough money you can just have them made. Everyone has pipe dreams, hell i have them! But it all comes down to good old green cash and with enough of it anything is possible, thats my feeling.

[mcgavinz26]

Yep. But if you had that kind of money you'd probably buy something much more exotic and not domestic at some point. Soon you would get very addicted to a reliable purpose built super car compared to your domestic midsized fwd sedan. I know I'd build up my crappy beretta too, but I do valet for a second job. Between driving Benz's all day, having driven a testarossa, four XLRs, and some brand new carreras, let me say that the grand am would go to the very bottom of your favorite cars that you own if you had the money you are talking about.

I think this topic just spiraled way off topic into no where. Sorry.

[phantom505]

Personally I like my GA. How many "exotic" cars can say the can put a 7" step ladder folded into it? ( just did it )

I have a good salary and I'm not afriad to spend it on the GA. I'm ****ed if I get in an accident though.

[mcgavinz26]

Originally Posted by phantom505

Personally I like my GA. How many "exotic" cars can say the can put a 7" step ladder folded into it? ( just did it )

I have a good salary and I'm not afriad to spend it on the GA. I'm ****ed if I get in an accident though.

I'm going to assume you meant 7' and not 7" .... ... not very many exotic cars, maybe that porsche SUV...?

[phantom505]

Yeah... 7'. It was a trick getting in there.... specially with the battery in the trunk.

[fast_ga]

Oh i have a list of super cars i'd definetly be buying if i won the lottery or came across a huge amount of money somehow. But at the same time i'd keep the GA and build it as much as possible just for the fun of it.

[phantom505]

If my wife gets a really good job: M3
If my wife gets a good job: 330xi
If my wife gets a job: G6 (3.5L, I don't trust the 3.9L yet)
If my wife is unemployed: some $1500 POS so I can drive to work

[TheShizzy]

Originally Posted by phantom505

Personally I like my GA. How many "exotic" cars can say the can put a 7" step ladder folded into it? ( just did it )

I have a good salary and I'm not afriad to spend it on the GA. I'm ****ed if I get in an accident though.

how much money have you put into this project of yours? out of curiousity. ballpark figure