3x00 cams

[tejohnson]

If you were going to go that far, why not just put in a '99 PCM so you have the ability to tune more. I couldn't imagine being stuck with a 256k PCM.

[oudidntkn0w]

Originally Posted by O1GAGT

Ok so what all do you have done to your car? I know you have the stage 1 cam ....but what else?

http://3400swap.com/wbody3.html

thats just about everything performance wise

as for tuning, milzy is supposed to be figuring something out

[Kyle]

Originally Posted by oudidntkn0w

http://3400swap.com/wbody3.html

thats just about everything performance wise

as for tuning, milzy is supposed to be figuring something out

you got a sound clip of the car?

[bszopi]

Originally Posted by oudidntkn0w

heck its already 50 more horse than I had

Where are you getting this 50hp gain? Cause it sure isn't from the cam and ported upper intake. Unless you are counting the increase in HP by going from the 3100 to the 3400....

[oudidntkn0w]

Originally Posted by bszopi

Where are you getting this 50hp gain? Cause it sure isn't from the cam and ported upper intake. Unless you are counting the increase in HP by going from the 3100 to the 3400....

do the math and you will see.

3100 to 3400 = +20
Cam = +30
Intakes = +5

and i can also add hp on here for the aftermarket exhaust, tuning when i get it, and a cai. another ~10

so around 55 right now more than a 3100, any other questions?

[oudidntkn0w]

Originally Posted by Kyle

you got a sound clip of the car?

not yet

[MilzyZ34]

Originally Posted by tejohnson

If you were going to go that far, why not just put in a '99 PCM so you have the ability to tune more. I couldn't imagine being stuck with a 256k PCM.

well i've personally seen a '96 car that was running on a 97 pcm without modification, so i know it can be done. i'm not sure a 99 pcm would work. i know in the GP world, the 97 and earlier pcm's had knock modules built on top of the pcm to communicate with the knock sensors and the others did not have these knock modules.

[tejohnson]

Originally Posted by oudidntkn0w

do the math and you will see.

3100 to 3400 = +20
Cam = +30
Intakes = +5

and i can also add hp on here for the aftermarket exhaust, tuning when i get it, and a cai. another ~10

so around 55 right now more than a 3100, any other questions?

I must be clueless as well... Never really thought it worked that way

[bszopi]

Oh, I didn't know we were doing hypothetical math here...

And since when does just the stage 1 cam and upper intake add 30hp? IIRC, the stage 2 cam and stage 2 heads and P&P'd upper AND lower intakes, and headers and tuning on Xonelith's car added around 50hp.

Get it dyno'd and then give me the numbers, cause I will guarantee that the cam didn't add 30hp.

[O1GAGT]

No, guys I don't think you understand I think he is going by flywheel horsepower not wheel HP.

[xonelith]

Ya, he probably is talking about flywheel.

Not to start anything here, but I don't have any real tuning yet. The only thing I changed was the TM, shift points, fan turn-ons and idle (basically what DHP does), which helped my quarter mile time, but I don't think it would have affected my dyno run. I'm still learning the computer!!

Also, I ran my dyno in 99*F temps (IAT's were at 114*F; real humid; I know, dumb to get a dyno done on that day, but I wanted a A/F).

Another thing, I can't confirm or deny how much of an increase I actually got since I did not dyno my car before any mods. The only thing I can deduce is I got 'ABOUT' 75hp crank increase; unconfirmed.

Assuming the GAGT is 175hp at the crank, stock and assuming 20% drivetrain loss, I now have ABOUT 250 hp at the crank.

I've been working on my fueling now and the weather is getting cooler. Assuming I don't break my transmission, I hope to get a dyno done within the next couple of months. I'll post the results.

The gain I did get was NOT from just the cam (as mentioned by bszopi). I suspect if I just put the cam in, I would have run worse than when I was stock!

[MilzyZ34]

Originally Posted by bszopi

Oh, I didn't know we were doing hypothetical math here...

And since when does just the stage 1 cam and upper intake add 30hp? IIRC, the stage 2 cam and stage 2 heads and P&P'd upper AND lower intakes, and headers and tuning on Xonelith's car added around 50hp.

Get it dyno'd and then give me the numbers, cause I will guarantee that the cam didn't add 30hp.

on Eric's car, his dyno numbers went from 160whp to 184whp only adding a stage 2 cam. this is a gain of 24whp which can be estimated at 30 crank hp. so a 30hp gain from ONLY a stage 2 cam (he already had heads and intakes), with cylinder heads that aren't near what ours are, and this cam is designed around our stage 2 heads.

now i'll admit this is not the best way to analize further, but it will give a ballpark gain ... Eric's car made 184 at the wheels, Tim's made 203.9 i think, so roughly 20whp difference of a stage 2 car with our heads vs a stage 2 car with brand x heads. since i hardly believe Eric's cylinder heads took away hp, it's fair to assume that our heads added atleast 20whp gain (25 crank), and this is assuming that eric's heads added zero hp. now we all know that's not true, they probably added somewhere in the 10-15chp range i would think, minimum. i'm not going to extrapolate this further, but i think you see my point.

now as for Tim's gains over stock ... a stock car starts at around 175 crank hp, which translates into roughly 140 at the wheels. Tim put down 204, so a gain of 62hp at the wheels. So with his mods that consist of a cai, headers, exhaust, our intakes, our heads, our cam, Tim was able to make 77.5 more hp than a stock car. so i would say it definately made more than 50.

[tejohnson]

Pre and post dyno runs are the best way to tell. The HP estimates on a particular product don't quite "stack" with other products which give reported gains. Perhaps that is the "hypothetical math" Brad was referring to.

Otherwise, I would be over 400hp already, and we all know that is BS.

[bszopi]

Eric gained ~30 crank hp with a Stage2 cam and ported heads.

oudidntknow is claiming a gain of 30hp from a stage1 cam and a ported upper intake, but no headwork. We can throw out the porting on the plenum because without having the lower ported, you are still limited to what the lower can flow. And I'm pretty sure the plenum is not the restictive part of the intake tract. Opening it up without any other mods will just bring more air into an area, causing it to slow down before it gets to the heads because the lower intake isn't altered to account for the increased air into the plenum.

With that said, unless the specs between the stage 1 and stage 2 are basically the same, Eric's setup will outflow (and thus have a significant hp gain) oudidntknow's. Therefore, the 30hp gain is very unrealistic.

And yes, the theorectical math is that hp gains don't add up like ordinary numbers. Just because a part can be dyno proven at 10hp and another part can be dyno proven at 20hp doesn't mean that together they will be 30hp. In fact, you may only see 22-25hp (or perhaps even 15-18hp) on the dyno when the 2 parts are working together.

[MilzyZ34]

Originally Posted by tejohnson

Pre and post dyno runs are the best way to tell. The HP estimates on a particular product don't quite "stack" with other products which give reported gains. Perhaps that is the "hypothetical math" Brad was referring to.

Otherwise, I would be over 400hp already, and we all know that is BS.

well you can see above that the before and after for Eric's car showed 30hp gain for just the cam

Tom Lopatka went from a 15.1 to a 14.5 ... only by adding our ported intakes, our stage 2 cam, our stage 2 heads, and our stage 2 pcm. now i know this isn't a dyno run, but this shows the results that you get at the track from our stage 2 package.

Tim Kaczun doesn't have any before info that i'm aware of, but he is smoking down the 1/4 mile with a 14.1 on an NA street-weight gagt.

now i definately understand and agree with your point that you can't just "add-up" hp gains. mods compliment eachother, that's how engines work. i think of modding an engine as removing bottlenecks in the way an engine breathes. usually though if you remove one bottleneck, another one comes into play. the problem is that most of the time, a customer wants a hard number on the value of the power gain a certain mod will add. i hear it all the time. "how much power if i get this exhaust you have?" "ok, well lets say i don't get the full exhaust, but straight pipe this section, add better mufflers, how much hp then" "ok, well how much hp if i do that and then remove my cat" it gets tough to answer this in a realistic way, but usually i underestimate it and give a range. for exhaust for example, i usually say 10-15 hp for a full exhaust. i always try to stay realistic and honest when it comes to my estimates for gains. when the cams came out, before i had results, i gave estimates of what i thought they would put out, and people thought i was exagerrating. now we do have results and these predictions were verified, and it still seems like some people think we're still overestimating. what proof is needed for these hp gain estimates to be accepted?

[MilzyZ34]

Originally Posted by bszopi

Eric gained ~30 crank hp with a Stage2 cam and ported heads.

oudidntknow is claiming a gain of 30hp from a stage1 cam and a ported upper intake, but no headwork. We can throw out the porting on the plenum because without having the lower ported, you are still limited to what the lower can flow. And I'm pretty sure the plenum is not the restictive part of the intake tract. Opening it up without any other mods will just bring more air into an area, causing it to slow down before it gets to the heads because the lower intake isn't altered to account for the increased air into the plenum.

With that said, unless the specs between the stage 1 and stage 2 are basically the same, Eric's setup will outflow (and thus have a significant hp gain) oudidntknow's. Therefore, the 30hp gain is very unrealistic.

And yes, the theorectical math is that hp gains don't add up like ordinary numbers. Just because a part can be dyno proven at 10hp and another part can be dyno proven at 20hp doesn't mean that together they will be 30hp. In fact, you may only see 22-25hp (or perhaps even 15-18hp) on the dyno when the 2 parts are working together.

No, Eric gained 30hp from JUST the cam. he already had the ported heads.

Oudidntknow does have a ported lower intake too, sorry if i missed that.

[bszopi]

Well, I guess he doesn't know it either, cause its not listed on the link he gave:

http://3400swap.com/wbody3.html

Either way, Eric gained 30hp with a cam and heads. The cam will compliment the heads. The heads will add more hp to the cam than just the cam alone. And, Eric's is a stage 2. Therefore, from what you are trying to say is, a Stage 1 cam with stock heads gains the same amount of hp as a Stage 2 cam with modified heads. Hmm... so why would anyone want a Stage 2 cam then? Obviously, by what you are saying, is that a stage 1 gets the same amount of power but without the extra cost of the heads.

[tejohnson]

Let the ET's and Dyno graphs do the marketing That is my point.

[MilzyZ34]

Originally Posted by bszopi

Well, I guess he doesn't know it either, cause its not listed on the link he gave:

http://3400swap.com/wbody3.html

Either way, Eric gained 30hp with a cam and heads. The cam will compliment the heads. The heads will add more hp to the cam than just the cam alone. And, Eric's is a stage 2. Therefore, from what you are trying to say is, a Stage 1 cam with stock heads gains the same amount of hp as a Stage 2 cam with modified heads. Hmm... so why would anyone want a Stage 2 cam then? Obviously, by what you are saying, is that a stage 1 gets the same amount of power but without the extra cost of the heads.

just one more hypothetical hp math

the stage 1 cam will make about 15-30hp on it's own, completely dependent on supporting mods.

the stage 2 cam and heads package can make upwards of 50hp depending on mods. we've shown that the cam on it's own made 30hp, and we've deducted the heads make a minimum of 20whp gain difference, more realistically 30whp difference (assuming that eric's brand x heads made atleast 10whp difference over stock). adding these straight together gives a sum of 67.5 . 50+ sounds reasonable to me.

as for how much hp i think Matt (oudidntknow) car makes, i'd say around 205-210 crank hp.

[MilzyZ34]

Originally Posted by tejohnson

Let the ET's and Dyno graphs do the marketing That is my point.

yeah that's the reason why we're adding the 1/4 mile list to the MMS website.