Buick Lucerne News: Official Photos - Page 5

Mike3800 · 02-10-2005, 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigbengt67

The 3800 as one of the top 10 engines in the world? You're kidding right? Here's 10 6's that would kick the 3800's ass any day, I won't even mention the other cylinder arrangements that are better than the 3800:

Nice list YOU composed, however the list that is on the top 10 best does not match your personal list.

You forget about torque, yet you drive a car with very low HP outpout compared to torque JUST LIKE THE 3800

. You talk about "old technology" yet you have an old technology OHV engine just like the 3800, only difference is the bank angle

. That 2800/3100/3400/3500 is as old as the hills (in FWD applications) just like the 3800 engine.

"It was named one of "The 10 Best Engines of the 20th Century" by Ward's AutoWorld magazine. It's a benchmark for pushrod-actuated, overhead valve V6 engines. It excels in packaging efficiency, smoothness and reliability. And, measured by output, efficiency and emissions, it equals or bests many overhead-cam engines while delivering superb low-speed power and response. Its overhead valve design assures lots of low rpm power: 205 hp, 230 lb-ft torque."

Sounds GREAT for a BASE ENGINE doesn't it?

How many awards that engine under the hood of your G6 get? None? Intake manifold gasket leaking yet?

What I said stands, the 3800 is a great base engine, it managed to propel the 00 LeSabre to 60 in less than 8 seconds... 7.4 seconds IIRC... I can look it up for you, that's what counts more than HP numbers... it's how it fits the application, and the 3.8 fits this cars BASE application quite well. I forgot to mention about the fact that the LeSabre gets 30MPG highway.

Vintalage · 02-10-2005, 03:25 PM

Despite that, I think GM is using the 3800 as a temporary solution until they finalize their new engine or whatever existing engine they want to use. I could be wrong, but i've read that GM is retiring this engine. Discovering that the Lucerne offers the aging 3800 surprised me given that fact.

bigbenSC · 02-10-2005, 05:09 PM

Did I ever say anything good about the engine in my car? Nope, I sure didn't. The 60 degree 6's are just as bad as the 3800. However, the 60 degrees are about a 20 year newer basic design than the 3800 and are now making the same HP. 10 best engine of the 20th century huh, well at its best those cars are 5 years old now. "Benchmark for pushrod activated, OHV engines", what other cars are using pushrod V6's in 2005? I dare you to name three cars outside of GM that offer them. I said it before, the 3800 was good back in the day, but it has been eclipsed by every manufacturer lately. 230 ft-lbs torque is not all that great considering its displacement. Look at that list I compiled- one engine is more than 3.8, and its a truck application. Get your 3800 powered Grand Prix, Impala, Monte, Lucerene, Lacrosse, and whatever else this outdated engine is in because its days are numbered.

Mike3800 · 02-10-2005, 06:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vintalage

Despite that, I think GM is using the 3800 as a temporary solution until they finalize their new engine or whatever existing engine they want to use. I could be wrong, but i've read that GM is retiring this engine. Discovering that the Lucerne offers the aging 3800 surprised me given that fact.

They are retiring it. I agree they need to either update it or retire it. I'd rather see them retire it than make it suffer the pathetic fate of the 2800/3100/3400/3500 engines.

Mike3800 · 02-10-2005, 06:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigbengt67

Did I ever say anything good about the engine in my car? Nope, I sure didn't. The 60 degree 6's are just as bad as the 3800. However, the 60 degrees are about a 20 year newer basic design than the 3800 and are now making the same HP.

But not the same torque and it isn't NEARLY as efficient.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigbengt67

10 best engine of the 20th century huh, well at its best those cars are 5 years old now. "Benchmark for pushrod activated, OHV engines", what other cars are using pushrod V6's in 2005?

Your car.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigbengt67

I said it before, the 3800 was good back in the day,

"back in the day" was 5 years ago?

That little clip of an article was about a 2004 Buick Park Avenue.

3800 is still a great engine. Perfectly fine as a base engine. I STILL stand by what I said.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigbengt67

but it has been eclipsed by every manufacturer lately. 230 ft-lbs torque is not all that great considering its displacement.

3800 has more peak torque and more torque sooner AND a borader torqueband than nearly every engine you listed... not to mention the fuel economy the car gets with the 3800 is better than the economy the cars that those engines you listed are placed in. Don't forget about the L67, they chose a supercharger instead of DOHC to increase power and efficiency, so it's not cheating. So... include that in your little personal list.

I am glad they will retire it. OHV engines I think need to be on their way out, with the exception of their V8's (but not impressive number's for their size). They need to use the 3.6 and other Ecotec based engines in their cars... *looks under the hood with complete content*

bigbenSC · 02-10-2005, 06:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike3800

They need to use the 3.6 and other Ecotec based engines in their cars... *looks under the hood with complete content*

Thats how I started off my posts in this section.
I said to name 3 cars OUTSIDE GM that use OHV V6's.

Mike3800 · 02-10-2005, 10:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigbengt67

Thats how I started off my posts in this section.
I said to name 3 cars OUTSIDE GM that use OHV V6's.

I never said there was anyone else that uses OHV V6's... but now that you mention it there are 2 brand new cars I can think of, 2005 Ford Taurus , 2005 Mercury Sable, and there are quite a few brand new minivans and trucks as well that use OHV V6's.

BTW... why'd you buy a car with an OHV V6 engine if you think it's such "old technology" etc... ? Like you said... not many left outside of GM.

bigbenSC · 02-10-2005, 10:52 PM

OK, you got me on those fords, but those aren't really class leading vehicles, and are being phased out by cars with OHC's. Lots of trucks still use them I know, and minivans are in a period of transition, only the Americans are making vans with OHV's. As to why I bought my G6, I got a hell of a lease deal, and I only have to deal with it for two years until I can afford the cars I really want, anyway you cut it, the car is a better place to be than my GA was. I think the G6 is a great place to introduce some new GM engines, I would love to have seen the GTP with the 3.6. But, the bean counters got their way. As long as the 3.9 has fairly equal power compared to it's competitors it will do ok, but if it came out with more, the car may be getting more respect by the media and around here. The 3.9 has been made fairly competitive, the 3800 could not put up the same numbers as the Japanese engines unless it is supercharged, and that is pretty sad. Why not have the base engine at least be the 3.9 in the new Lucerne, its a better BASE engine than the 3800?

Braves299 · 02-10-2005, 10:55 PM

I saw an AIIIIRRRRRPLLLLLANNNNNNNNNNEEEEEEEEE today

Mike3800 · 02-10-2005, 11:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigbengt67

OK, you got me on those fords, but those aren't really class leading vehicles, and are being phased out by cars with OHC's. Lots of trucks still use them I know, and minivans are in a period of transition, only the Americans are making vans with OHV's. As to why I bought my G6, I got a hell of a lease deal, and I only have to deal with it for two years until I can afford the cars I really want, anyway you cut it, the car is a better place to be than my GA was. I think the G6 is a great place to introduce some new GM engines, I would love to have seen the GTP with the 3.6. But, the bean counters got their way. As long as the 3.9 has fairly equal power compared to it's competitors it will do ok, but if it came out with more, the car may be getting more respect by the media and around here. The 3.9 has been made fairly competitive, the 3800 could not put up the same numbers as the Japanese engines unless it is supercharged, and that is pretty sad. Why not have the base engine at least be the 3.9 in the new Lucerne, its a better BASE engine than the 3800?

3800 is a proven engine. It is reliable and in-expensive. The 3.9 is not yet proven, and it is not in-expensive, it is not slated to be a base engine.

3800 (the one in this car) has not been updated since it is slated to be phased out, if it was updated, then it would cost more to make

3800 doesn't "need" a supercharger to compete, it's just a different way of adding power, some engineers think DOHC and making the engine rev really high is a better way than supercharging. So what you said is not relavant... and you still forget about TORQUE, Japanese are just now comming around to that, they are catching up, especially Nissan.

3800 keeps the price of the base car down, and the consumer gets a reliable car with an efficient powerful proven world class engine.

3500 is a cheap engine like the 3800 (probbably cheaper), however it lacks the TORQUE, economy and refinment of the 3800. Why do you think the G6 V6 is so cheap?

No... I think they did just fine with the 3800 as the base engine.

If they are smart they will put the 3.6 DOHC engine as the base when the 3.8 is finally retired.

VTECSiGAH8R · 02-11-2005, 01:40 PM

What is everyone's problem with the 3800 as a base engine? I mean sure it's not the most powerful thing out there, but what a great smooth engine. My friend has a 1993 Buick Park Avenue, and that huge boat moves around very nicely a smoothly with that engine in it. It has about 170,000 miles and has never given him any issues at all.

Rich · 02-11-2005, 02:04 PM

getting back to the car. i think i kind of like it. the front and side look kind of G6-esque and the rear looks kind of cavalier/preludeish. i kind of like the vent things on the front fenders but the need to be a different color or something. looks liek they were kind of just stuck on there. and the inteior. kind of cool. i liek the speedo.

Mike3800 · 02-11-2005, 04:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VTECSiGAH8R

My friend has a 1993 Buick Park Avenue, and that huge boat moves around very nicely a smoothly with that engine in it. It has about 170,000 miles and has never given him any issues at all.

... and your friend has a Series I 3800 with 170HP not the newer Series II with 200HP that is going in the Lucerne.

bigbenSC · 02-11-2005, 04:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VTECSiGAH8R

What is everyone's problem with the 3800 as a base engine? I mean sure it's not the most powerful thing out there, but what a great smooth engine. My friend has a 1993 Buick Park Avenue, and that huge boat moves around very nicely a smoothly with that engine in it. It has about 170,000 miles and has never given him any issues at all.

If you're idea of a car that "moves around nicely" is a 93 Park Avenue you need to look into driving a Mercury Grand Marquis, it will seem like a Ferrari compared to that Buick, haha. This proves my point that the 3800 was a good engine.... 12 years ago.

jake3217 · 02-11-2005, 04:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigbengt67

If you're idea of a car that "moves around nicely" is a 93 Park Avenue you need to look into driving a Mercury Grand Marquis, it will seem like a Ferrari compared to that Buick, haha. This proves my point that the 3800 was a good engine.... 12 years ago.

I fail to see how this proves your point. Yes, the 3800 Series I was a good engine 12 years ago. The 3800 Series III is a good engine today.

bigbenSC · 02-11-2005, 05:14 PM

I give up trying to convince you guys that the 3800 is not a competitive engine and needs to be replaced!

jake3217 · 02-11-2005, 09:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigbengt67

I give up trying to convince you guys that the 3800 is not a competitive engine and needs to be replaced!

Good, because it doesn't!

Vintalage · 02-11-2005, 10:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jake3217

Good, because it doesn't!

It does. I agree with him. He's not denying the fact that it's a reliabe motor. It just can't keep up with the other engines without requiring some boost. Namely, an Eaton supercharger. It's days are numbered.

Mike3800 · 02-12-2005, 01:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigbengt67

I give up trying to convince you guys that the 3800 is not a competitive engine and needs to be replaced!

Yeah PEOPLE!! Get a heavy G6 with a state of the art OHV 3500 that has less HP and torque than a 3800!! You people need to get a clue!

Mike3800 · 02-12-2005, 01:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vintalage

It does. I agree with him. He's not denying the fact that it's a reliabe motor. It just can't keep up with the other engines without requiring some boost. Namely, an Eaton supercharger. It's days are numbered.

Yeah.. his 3500 is up to date and compedative.

The 3800 is being used now as a base engine. It is 10x better than other base engines in it's class.

It beats the pants off the base engine in the Camry, Accord, Altima and Galant, not to mention Taurus and Sable. There you have it.

02-10-2005, 03:25 PM	#82
Vintalage Hey paisanos! Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Maryland Age: 38 Posts: 5,490 Vehicle: 2002 Grand Am GT1	Despite that, I think GM is using the 3800 as a temporary solution until they finalize their new engine or whatever existing engine they want to use. I could be wrong, but i've read that GM is retiring this engine. Discovering that the Lucerne offers the aging 3800 surprised me given that fact. __________________ 2002 Grand Am GT1 Sedan - Black 7000K HID PICS [SOLD to Jscarano]

02-10-2005, 10:55 PM	#89
Braves299 WVU owns you AKA: David Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Derwood, Maryland Age: 36 Posts: 2,170 Vehicle: '99 GA SE 3.4, '06 Ram	I saw an AIIIIRRRRRPLLLLLANNNNNNNNNNEEEEEEEEE today __________________ Carl Lee Combs July 8, 1944 - February 20, 2002 "Gone for now, never forgotten"

02-11-2005, 02:04 PM	#92
Rich Moderator AKA: Rich Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Toledo, OH Age: 36 Posts: 4,513 Vehicle: 2001 2.4 Grand Am	getting back to the car. i think i kind of like it. the front and side look kind of G6-esque and the rear looks kind of cavalier/preludeish. i kind of like the vent things on the front fenders but the need to be a different color or something. looks liek they were kind of just stuck on there. and the inteior. kind of cool. i liek the speedo. __________________ "The news isn't so depressing when you're surrounded by bubbles." fquick

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02-10-2005, 05:09 PM	#83
bigbenSC SC and Loving It! AKA: Ben Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Lexington, KY Age: 36 Posts: 1,772 Vehicle: 2005 SRT-6, 2001 GA GT	Did I ever say anything good about the engine in my car? Nope, I sure didn't. The 60 degree 6's are just as bad as the 3800. However, the 60 degrees are about a 20 year newer basic design than the 3800 and are now making the same HP. 10 best engine of the 20th century huh, well at its best those cars are 5 years old now. "Benchmark for pushrod activated, OHV engines", what other cars are using pushrod V6's in 2005? I dare you to name three cars outside of GM that offer them. I said it before, the 3800 was good back in the day, but it has been eclipsed by every manufacturer lately. 230 ft-lbs torque is not all that great considering its displacement. Look at that list I compiled- one engine is more than 3.8, and its a truck application. Get your 3800 powered Grand Prix, Impala, Monte, Lucerene, Lacrosse, and whatever else this outdated engine is in because its days are numbered.

02-10-2005, 10:52 PM	#88
bigbenSC SC and Loving It! AKA: Ben Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Lexington, KY Age: 36 Posts: 1,772 Vehicle: 2005 SRT-6, 2001 GA GT	OK, you got me on those fords, but those aren't really class leading vehicles, and are being phased out by cars with OHC's. Lots of trucks still use them I know, and minivans are in a period of transition, only the Americans are making vans with OHV's. As to why I bought my G6, I got a hell of a lease deal, and I only have to deal with it for two years until I can afford the cars I really want, anyway you cut it, the car is a better place to be than my GA was. I think the G6 is a great place to introduce some new GM engines, I would love to have seen the GTP with the 3.6. But, the bean counters got their way. As long as the 3.9 has fairly equal power compared to it's competitors it will do ok, but if it came out with more, the car may be getting more respect by the media and around here. The 3.9 has been made fairly competitive, the 3800 could not put up the same numbers as the Japanese engines unless it is supercharged, and that is pretty sad. Why not have the base engine at least be the 3.9 in the new Lucerne, its a better BASE engine than the 3800?

02-11-2005, 01:40 PM	#91
VTECSiGAH8R GAGT - Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Miami, FL Age: 36 Posts: 1,346 Vehicle: 97 Honda Civic DX	What is everyone's problem with the 3800 as a base engine? I mean sure it's not the most powerful thing out there, but what a great smooth engine. My friend has a 1993 Buick Park Avenue, and that huge boat moves around very nicely a smoothly with that engine in it. It has about 170,000 miles and has never given him any issues at all.

02-11-2005, 05:14 PM	#96
bigbenSC SC and Loving It! AKA: Ben Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Lexington, KY Age: 36 Posts: 1,772 Vehicle: 2005 SRT-6, 2001 GA GT	I give up trying to convince you guys that the 3800 is not a competitive engine and needs to be replaced!