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Old 02-21-2005, 04:58 PM   #1
00montecarlo
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turbocharged 3400 sfi

Alright to start off I don't have a grand am instead I have a 2000 monte carlo with a 3400 sfi but the engine and most everything else is the same. I am considering a turbo but I need a little help because I have alot of questions.

I already have an intercooler and a turbo that will fit my engine I also have a MAP sensor off a factory turbocharged GM car that will read +1 Bar.

1. will I be able to run 7psi of boost even though my compression ratio is 9.6:1?

2. will my computer read boost from a +1 bar MAP sensor ?

3. does anyone know of any specific difficulties of feeding boost to a 3400 sfi

4. should I put the MAF sensor on the outlet side of the turbo or on the inlet side of the turbo?

5. with only 7psi will i need to do alot of tuning of the fuel system or can I get by with adding an adjustable fuel pressure regulator?

Thanks I hope that yall can help me because there isn't much out there as far as performance parts for a 3400 powered monte carlo.
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Old 02-21-2005, 05:36 PM   #2
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isn't your engine a dohc instead of a pushrod engine?? i'm not sure but i was thinking it was.

you'll prolly have to do a little tuning..you don't want her to lean out, also your gonna need a good ignition, maybe take out some timimg, just to be safe!
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Old 02-21-2005, 06:06 PM   #3
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nope, he's got a 3.4l pushrod, I wish Germ would chime in on this thread, he's already got a turbo monte with that motor. He's had good results with his setup.
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Old 02-21-2005, 06:07 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 00montecarlo
Thanks I hope that yall can help me because there isn't much out there as far as performance parts for a 3400 powered monte carlo.

there areant that many for the 3400...period
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Old 02-21-2005, 11:33 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 00montecarlo

1. will I be able to run 7psi of boost even though my compression ratio is 9.6:1?
easily

Quote:
2. will my computer read boost from a +1 bar MAP sensor ?
not unless its tunned to do so
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Old 02-22-2005, 11:27 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 00montecarlo
Alright to start off I don't have a grand am instead I have a 2000 monte carlo with a 3400 sfi but the engine and most everything else is the same. I am considering a turbo but I need a little help because I have alot of questions.

I already have an intercooler and a turbo that will fit my engine I also have a MAP sensor off a factory turbocharged GM car that will read +1 Bar.

1. will I be able to run 7psi of boost even though my compression ratio is 9.6:1?

2. will my computer read boost from a +1 bar MAP sensor ?

3. does anyone know of any specific difficulties of feeding boost to a 3400 sfi

4. should I put the MAF sensor on the outlet side of the turbo or on the inlet side of the turbo?

5. with only 7psi will i need to do alot of tuning of the fuel system or can I get by with adding an adjustable fuel pressure regulator?

Thanks I hope that yall can help me because there isn't much out there as far as performance parts for a 3400 powered monte carlo.

1)You can run 7spi of boost no problem with that compression ratio. You can run higher than that with tuning (I've run up to 11psi).

2)You don't need to switch the MAP sensor either. It will already read up to 14psi. You can't get the computer to read higher than that though without a reprogram.

3) Don't just put the turbo on the crossover pipe like some people do and keep the stock exhaust manifolds. The stock mani's are known to create a spike in boost pressures of 2-3psi on supercharged cars because they are so restrictive. Also you'd only be running off of one bank of cylinders, and extremely restricting exhaust flow on that side. This would limit the engine's output and turbo efficiency, which is the turbo's biggest advantage over a supercharger. If you want it to work at peak output and efficiency you'll need some tubular turbo manifolds with both banks feeding the turbine then going to a custom downpipe.

4) The MAF should go on the turbo inlet side, and not right next to the turbo so that air flow thru it isn't disturbed by turbulence. The blow off valve should go between the intercooler outlet and the throttle body. You will lose some metered air with this setup, but the computer should be able to handle it at only 7psi with only minor hiccups. Any more boost and you'd need to change something. You could use a bypass valve instead of a BOV, that would re-route the air back to the intake between the MAF and the turbo inlet. This effectively releaves the pressure on the throttle body by making the turbo pump the air in a circle, without losing any metered air. You'll lose the cool swishing noise of course when shifting. Other option would be to keep the BOV and use something like an Apexi S-AFC fuel computer that can adjust fueling to account for lost air. Those fuel computers don't work with our kind of MAF though, so you have to use them with the MAP sensor which limits their range of adjustability.

5) At only 7psi you could get away with a fuel pressure regulator. Not just an adjustable FPR though. You'd need a rising rate regulator that will raise fuel pressure at least 1psi per 1psi of boost. There are plenty out there, but they require custom mounting, or you could leave the stock one and put a vortech FMU in the return line to raise pressure. This would get you by, but wouldn't make the best horse power or fuel efficiency. Turbos are harder to tune than SC's because they hit peak boost sooner, instead of boost increasing linearly with rpm like an SC does. You would probably have some rpm ranges where it runs rich and others where it runs lean. Like any mods really (but more so when adding boost) computer tuning is really the safest easiest way to get the most from the setup. Since you have a '00 monte I'm sure you could get programming done by digital horsepower.
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Old 02-22-2005, 07:38 PM   #7
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Well I got a turbo today it is a mitsubishi te04h I believe that it will be able to supply me with about 7-9 psi. It has a built in exhaust bypass valve. I have two more questions Will that bypass valve be able to regulate the boost well enough that I won't need a blowoff valve or do I still need one to keep the boost from spiking when it shifts gears. And my other question is where on my engine is the best spot to run the oil line to the turbo from.
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Old 02-22-2005, 07:46 PM   #8
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[quote=AaronGTR]

3) Don't just put the turbo on the crossover pipe like some people do and keep the stock exhaust manifolds. The stock mani's are known to create a spike in boost pressures of 2-3psi on supercharged cars because they are so restrictive. Also you'd only be running off of one bank of cylinders, and extremely restricting exhaust flow on that side.

You don't need a custom set of tubular headers to have a good running setup.

Deeko had a pretty gnarly setup, that just never saw its full potential because Deeko was well Deeko.

You can make some pretty damn good power, (Deeko = low 14 1/4mile time anybody?), on the stock exhaust manifolds, and making a custom crossover where they both meet together at the turbo. We never saw the spike of 2-3 psi that you're talking about either on Deek's car. It's not as bad a setup as you're making it out to be, and actually in fact is I will say an effective and economical setup.
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Old 02-22-2005, 07:50 PM   #9
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i know i know very off topic....but just reading this thread makes me wish i had the money to turbo my ga
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Old 02-22-2005, 07:59 PM   #10
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I believe the spike Aaron is talking about is the restriction of the exhuast manifolds, since you lose 2psi from going to stock logs to headers. Since it flows more, there is no boost stacking.
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Old 02-22-2005, 08:41 PM   #11
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Exactly, he never saw the spike because he always had the stock mani's so he had no idea how much restriction they were causing. When I switched from stock to headers my boost immediately dropped 2psi at redline because at that point the stockers were such a restriction the cylinders couldn't empty fast enough and the boost was backing up and reading higher. Same thing can happen with a turbo. You could be getting 9psi boost reading on a gauge but not really getting much total air flow because you are trying to cram all this air thru tiny manifolds that now have a turbine stuck in them too. It's just a cheap ass ghetto rig setup, and isn't the right way to do it.
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Old 02-22-2005, 09:31 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AaronGTR
It's just a cheap ass ghetto rig setup, and isn't the right way to do it.
It worked and put down some sweet times, for 2200ft above sea level 14.1@97mph is a very nice result. Stock logs will work, but its always better to use a free flowing header. I only wished Phantom would take his car down the track
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Old 02-23-2005, 01:54 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AaronGTR
. It's just a cheap ass ghetto rig setup, and isn't the right way to do it.

you know what you're right..... it is a cheap ass ghetto rig setup that was able to put out 14.1@97mph.... I really couldn't think how we did it wrong on this end.... seriously I'm sorry to have doubted you. the setup was poorly planned out and had no chance of competing with the supercharged guys....

Forgive the mistake of using the stock logs in the first place.


/sarcasm

Dude admit it... the setup worked brilliantly, and it would've went even farther if Deeko could've stopped breaking the tranny. The only thing left stock on the exhaust side was the two log manifolds, everythign else was fabricated, and it worked. The "cheap ass ghetto rig setup" got Deeko a 14.1.... there are still supercharged guys not hitting that.
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Old 02-23-2005, 03:19 PM   #14
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Old 02-23-2005, 03:36 PM   #15
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Old 02-23-2005, 09:28 PM   #16
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Mike remember the good ole days when you would troll around clubgp.com and talk trash about how your ga was faster than GTP's and how they're overrated. ("3400>3800 talk") Now it seems you've climbed down to the other side of the fence. Any other plans for your wife's car.
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Old 02-23-2005, 09:37 PM   #17
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Old 02-23-2005, 09:48 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SpyhunteR
The only thing left stock on the exhaust side was the two log manifolds, everything else was fabricated, and it worked. The "cheap ass ghetto rig setup" got Deeko a 14.1.... there are still supercharged guys not hitting that.
just imagine what it could of done with turbo headers.....
14.1 is impressive yes. but compairing any turbo setup to the eaton sc is a very retarded compairision.
1) the turbo was intercooled ( we all know what a magna will do now with an intercooler and its faster than a 14.1)

2) the magna is tiny and can barely support the 3400 on higher boost with good mods.

put a t25 or a straight t3 on a 3400 with no intercooler and it will be a closer compairsion to the m62 then lets see where the times are.
yes his setup was impressive but even though it worked there are definately better ways of doing it. same with the m62 supercharger thats why I sold mine
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Old 02-23-2005, 10:20 PM   #19
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I agree that Germ should really chime in, I'm gonna point him to this thread.... If it's any help, I'm building a setup from scratch as well... I am currently waiting on my MIG to get delivered so I can tack up the logs, xover, & down pipe I am building...

For the moment, I am in Maryland (Next to DC) so I finally got off my lazy ass and organized all of my build pics:

http://groomlakelabs.com/gallery/

See "Phase Two" for the turbo setup. I try to update when I get some thing accomplished, or purchased.

As for the MAP, you can get a 3bar, but you are a god if you can effectively use it

For the MAF, it is my understanding that the closer to the TB, the better (based on info from folks who have turbo setups). This is also a good position AFAIK to position the BOV (Just Prior to the MAF). I plan to also mount the IAT this close as well... If I have issues, I may just go with a happy knob (PowrTuner is needed for this)

I specified a 10lb spring (.7 bar) with the wastegate I purchased, but I plan to edge in the boost over time tuning in small increments (again, PowrTuner is needed for this).

For fuel, your stock FPR will even work. You can pick up new 42.5lb injectors from ZZP for rather cheap. I got my through Germ tho...

I also have a Caspers FPR, but this was for the prior rebuild where fueling had to be hacked with pressure (See Phase One pics in the link above)

An interesting resource is http://homemadeturbo.com/ Germ is also a member of that forum as well.

I can _try_ to answer any questions you have, but keep in mind that I am learning as well. Some of the pics are self explanatory in the gallery above...

For the headers (the hardest part of the project), I went with Schedule 40 piping (Tees, 90 bends, etc) from http://www.mcmaster.com/

As for the flanges, I picked up the wastegate, turbo, exaust, etc. from various folks. For the header flanges, I worked some up in AutoCad, and had them plasma cut at a local fabricating facility that has a plasma table which takes autocad files. You can d/l the here:

http://groomlakelabs.com/grandamp/pi...esign/flanges/

Yes, they are very similar to TOG flanges, just a bit more meat around the primaries...

Then, the transmission is an entire beast (at least on a GA). You could wind up with one that has a differential like my old 4T45-E (See the Transmission album in the gallery link above). Does the newer monte have a 60/65?

In any case, it is a rather fun project Good luck!

EDIT: Typo on the HMT link....
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Old 02-23-2005, 10:45 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aleroboy
just imagine what it could of done with turbo headers.....
14.1 is impressive yes. but compairing any turbo setup to the eaton sc is a very retarded compairision.
1) the turbo was intercooled ( we all know what a magna will do now with an intercooler and its faster than a 14.1)

2) the magna is tiny and can barely support the 3400 on higher boost with good mods.

put a t25 or a straight t3 on a 3400 with no intercooler and it will be a closer compairsion to the m62 then lets see where the times are.
yes his setup was impressive but even though it worked there are definately better ways of doing it. same with the m62 supercharger thats why I sold mine
Here's my complaint. Deek never was able to see the full potential of his setup as he kept on ****ing up his tranny. Maybe if he wasn't a ***** and let a real person drive it, it would've went beyond 14.1... Deek has had minimal track experience.

It's also not my fault that whoever designed the magna for the 3.4 had to make it soo tiny. Also really why would anybody want to put a T25, or a straight T3 on a 3.4... we did everything right on this end. Deek just never was able to pull the most out of the setup that he could. With turbo headers Deek still would've been hitting a 14.1 becuase here's a secret... he couldn't drive the car well...

also this post is about turbocharging a 3.4 not supercharging.. :-p
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