Sony XPlod...

i will eventually be going to 5.1 dolby. its kinda hard to have that if i dont have rear speakers.

See, there is a reason for some people to keep the rear speakers. I plan on adding monitors in my head rests, and possible a din 2 or fold out monitor in the future, and would love to be able to hear the movies and or games how they should sound, from anywhere in the car.

~Ryan

[MantaGreen97]

Originally Posted by Metallman56

i will eventually be going to 5.1 dolby. its kinda hard to have that if i dont have rear speakers.

Yeah the additional speakers are good for DD/DTS but remember that if you're in the front, the rear speakers aren't going to do much for you when playing back a DD or DTS soundtrack. The surround effects that are supposed to come from directly beside you in a home theatre will not be nearly as effective in a car where the speakers are located far behind you.

Also, for people in the rear, the front L/R channels won't be that effective either because of the location of the speakers (low on the door) and because of the seats in front of them.

But even if you decide to keep the rears to do DD/DTS in the future, at least disconnect them for now!

[MantaGreen97]

Originally Posted by hallows-eve

See, there is a reason for some people to keep the rear speakers. ...and would love to be able to hear the movies and or games how they should sound, from anywhere in the car.

~Ryan

But that's just it though... The way the speakers are laid out (in a Grand Am at least) you aren't going to hear them as they "should" sound because if you look at any home theatre you'll see you sit well behind a pair of stereo fronts, with a centre channel the same distance away (or slightly closer), and with surround (and surround backs if applicable) to the side of and behind you, with distances that must be shorter than the distance from you to the front speakers. (If you've ever set up a HT receiver and speakers you'll know that you're prohibited for setting rear speaker distances that are further than the front speaker distances, when setting distances in the receivers' menu systems). In other words, the speaker distances you're going to have in a car are not consistent with either Dolby or DTS standards and you won't be hearing the multi-channel soundtracks as they were intended.

So really the rear speakers aren't going to help you out as much as you'd think. Perhaps with multi-channel music material, as in DVD-A or SACD it would be more beneficial (in car) but those are two limited and dying formats that never really caught on...

Well, I'm still going to replace the speakers in the rear, because I won't be buying a subwoofer right away, and I'll need that extra oomphf for awhile... And, no. I won't unplug them when I get the sub(s). That's just how I see it. They're there for a reason, and whether or not they are properly placed, well, I couldn't care less where they are, they're still there, and still getting replaced... Getting replaced with Boston SL95's.

~Ryan

[Nessuno3400]

yea, I tried unplugging my rear speakers and it sounded like shyt...even if they don't seem to add much, they give you a lot of your highs and mids still

[Metallman56]

i totally agree man. i think its good to have rears. sure you cant hear them nearly as well as the fronts but when there not on i can tell a big differnce, just by the way the sound is hitting me. as for dolby most people understand that they are sitting in a car and not in a house. what i mean is its not going to be as good as a home theater, but it shouldnt be too bad. h*ll some of the cheaper home audio recievers say in the directions to but the rears not beside you but behind you. i am not trying to arguee but i just cant really see why you hate rear speakers so d*nmn much.

i am not trying to arguee but i just cant really see why you hate rear speakers so d*nmn much.

...Maybe they ate his baby???...

j/k

~Ryan

[MIAaron]

Some people just like the faithful, true-to-form reproduction. For example, at a concert or a jazz club there isn't people playing behind you. I prefer a front stage without rear fill, but when properly utilized, rears can still sound good. They need to be ran quite a bit lower than the fronts though, otherwise they will skew the soundstage. There isn't really any need for tweets in them either. If you're getting a lot of highs out of your rears, your high end is being ran way to loud. The shape of your ears naturally attenuate high freq's from sources that are behind you. I'll also note that many of the freq's that people think are high are actually in the midrange. You'd be amazed how many people think notes in the 2-5k range are highs. Take a listen to just your tweets sometime and you'll see what I mean. With these considerations, many 3" wideband drivers work great for rear fill. They don't add a lot of volume to your music, but they do fill the car great.

Don't forget though, you can still get a great enveloping soundstage with properly placed fronts. I'm getting too much ambience in the 3-4k range that is pulling the soundstage behind me.

[MantaGreen97]

Originally Posted by Nessuno3400

yea, I tried unplugging my rear speakers and it sounded like shyt...even if they don't seem to add much, they give you a lot of your highs and mids still

Highs and mids from the rear??? Ugh. That completely does in your soundstage and imaging in most cases.

If you have nothing for low end reproduction (i.e. no subwoofers), then yeah you pretty much have to keep the rears. Especially if you have small speakers up front and/or your doors are not sound deadened. That's simply because otherwise you'll be getting no response at all below perhaps 200Hz or so...

But even if you run rears, I'd recommend trying to cut the highs out of them. The factory rear speakers didn't really produce much high end frequencies (well in the 96-98 they didn't).

Also I don't know exactly how the speakers go into the trunk in the 5th gen cars but in mine, the 6x9s just go right into the trunk. No enclosure, nothing. Which is fine because they are running IB and that is good. However when you add a subwoofer into the trunk the air moved by the sub will interfere with the 6x9s. This is pretty easy to see if you just turn off the 6x9s and then turn up the volume to a moderate-to-high level and put your hand on the 6x9 and feel the cone bounce around, . Removing the 6x9s will also allow a little more sub output to enter the cabin in the case when you have the rear seat up.

Originally Posted by Metallman56

i am not trying to arguee but i just cant really see why you hate rear speakers so d*nmn much.

Oh it's fine, I'm not trying to argue either. Just a friendly discussion I dunno it just sounds way better up front without the 6x9s running--you get robbed of imaging and staging with the speakers in the rear. And I've tried (as I mentioned) removing highs from 3000Hz and up and it still sounds bad. In fact, my DSP has time-alignment as well, and even with it aligned for the front I was surprised that not even the DSP time-alignment did much for me. In the end removing the rear speakers just sounded way better.

Given if you're sitting in the back you get gyped pretty good, but it isn't often that anyone is sitting in the back in my car, and really I don't care what they [aren't] hearing haha.

Believe me though when I was your guys age (and nothing against your age or anything, I'm just saying when I was younger...) I had the exact same attitude. I did everything possible to keep my 6x9s going one way or another. But it never sounded very good--my last effort was having them as above, separately amped, time-aligned, and highs cut and I realised it was pointless and just ruining things for me up front.

That said, I'd agree with MIAaron in that you can have a good/effective rear fill--to me it is just more trouble than it's worth.

Just my $0.02 though, I mean run it however you feel it sounds best to you--to me though it just makes no sense. :shrug:

Well, I still plan on buying new 6"x9"s for the rear. I carry passengers back there occasionally, and since I'm planning on monitors dedicated to rear passengers, I think it's in the best interest I purchase new ones. However, you guys have spakred a little intrigue into me. Methinks I'll be trying out the rear and front fader switch when I get my subs in the future. I just want to say, I'm not doubting you guys at all, and yes, we're young, we know it all . j/k.


~Ryan

[Nessuno3400]

yea, highs and mids from the rear...and I don't have factory speakers, I have aftermarket Kicker 2-way 6x9's, so yes, they do indeed produce a good amount of highs and mids...I tried cutting them out completely and it sounds horrible + even if you're trying to create concert sound, it doesn't really help that the bass is coming from behind you, in fact it sounds kinda stupid <---that's in the least argumentative way possible, if you like it that's your thing man, you have to listen to it, not me

[DevilDriver]

is anyone familiar with absolute phasing of soundwaves? if you were, you wouldn't argue that 6x9's in the rear is correct

your issue that it sounded crappy without 6x9's may be related to the fact that you were using the crappy speakers up front. but anyone who confuses more sound for better sound would call that stupid i guess.

[MIAaron]

By a huge margin, bass is the hardest to localize. Especially if you have strong midbass up front.

Absolute phase is great, but very hard in the car enviroment. Without a PC based measurement system and a strong pro audio EQ, you are hard pressed in the car enviroment. Luckily, these are becoming more common and affordable.

[DevilDriver]

absolute phasing is a lot easier in car audio than it used to be since more high end HU's now have DTC.

i said absolute phasing when perhaps i should've also mentioned destructive interference.

[Metallman56]

if i took my 6x9s out you guys are saying that my car will sound better? i dont have crappy speakers up front witch both punkorama and miaaron agree with. so if it doesnt sound better to me should i still take them out?

also what if i built a box around the rear 6x9s in the trunk. would they still be affected by the subs on just vibration alone? i would imagine they still would considering i can get my back panel to lift up a couple of inches when my subs are on. thats just a guess but i can really launch quarters and other things off it. but will it make it any better?

[Mendoza]

Why don't you guys just put a 3 way component set up front if all you want is a front sound stage. Rear speakers are not necessary, they're only there for rear fill. They provide more of a concert sound, somewhat delayed. If you wanna do a 5.1 setup, the best way to do it would be a rear 6 1/2 inch component set in a fiberglass pod for more detailed bass. That would be the best way to protect your speakers from being effected from sound pressure created by your subwoofers. Same goes for 6x9's if you don't want to upgrade to a component set.

Okay, coming home from work tonight, I did a little science experiment. With Sevendust's "Seasons" album in my head, and the fade switch between my finegrs, I began working away. So I found out that the rear 6x9s pretty much just add a slight bit of bass, but overall just make your system louder. However, with the just the fronts on, I would have to crank the volume up substantially more to get a decent volume level. Which, could prove different with gear other than OEM. I also found that the rear 6x9"s put out quite a bit of mids and highs, more that I ever would've expected. I actually think that they put out more of those two than bass. (My car is also a former rental car, and had a previous owner on top of that, so my speakers must've seen some abusive sh*t before. I'm sure this may not go for all OEM setups.)

So, to conclude, I have found that, no, you don't need rear 6x9s, however, they do add a more fuller sound with a stock OEM setup. I imagine that with the proprerly placed 6.5" component set up front and a subwoofer in the back, you wouldn't need rear speakers "for the bass." However, I will be purchasing my gear in the order of "speakers, head, sub, sub amp, speaker amp." So, I will be buying new 6x9"s, just perhaps not the expensive ones I previously thought. I may just go for a cheaper type for now, and see what I like down the road with the sub.

~Ryan

[MIAaron]

Punkorama,
I try to avoid DTC(Digital Time Correction) as much as possible. Many people use it to patch a crappy install, which it doesn't. All it does is help with PLD(Path Length Differences), which doesn't apply to the whole audible freq spectrum. I can touch on IID(Interaural Intensity Difference), ITD(Interaural Time Difference), and HRTF(Head Related Transfer Fucntion) to explain it out further if you like.


Metallman,
I'm apologize if I'm coming off as rear speakers are never good. If you don't have a good image and freq response to start with, it won't do a whole lot. I'll go over the whole point of it though. The majority of cd's are in stereo, which is 2 channels(L & R) of signal. Having multiple point sources playing the same signal will produce more reflections, nodes/antinodes, as well as diffuse the focus of the stage. Stereo was never meant to be played from more than two speakers. D'appolitio style mtm's, line arrays, etc are not exceptions, as they are specifically designed to maintain the same point source location.

Don't bother taking your 6x9's out, just turn them off. It's easy to see the effects on the image. Ideally you would have some cd's with image mapping descriptions. If not, just grab your best recorded cd's and pay attention to where the singers voice and other instuments are coming from. Now turn on your 6x9's and locate the same information. Different cd's and songs will have a greater effect, so play around with it for a bit.

If you are using the stock door locations for your mids, this might not make much of a difference though. One of the most common issues with 2way sets in a car door is that the midbass and midrange will be out of phase. So if you have your speakers in phase for the midrange, your midbass will be weak. And if your speakers are in phase for the midbass, your midrange will be weak and diffussed. That's not to say you can't get good sound from a 2-way set in the doors. The rear deck generally doesn't suffer from this issue.


Mendoza,
I am running a 3 way front stage, but I'm running active and using DIY home drivers.


Hallows,
Having a front stage that has ability to cover the majority of the freq bandwidth helps out a lot. I understand why people are saying it sounds better with the rears, cuz it does have a more full sound when you don't have a properly implemented front stage. If I was just doing a quick 6.5 coax in the doors I would run rear fill also.

Speaker placement also makes a huge difference. With the stock locations, vocals are very low, and you can pinpoint the vocals to each speaker. Even my crappy qforms get a stage that is just lower than eye level, a little bit past the windshield, and a little bit wider than the pillars. They have a horrible center image though, and a major phase issue in the 3-5khz range. When the majority of the muscial energy is in the 3-5k range, the soundstage goes from just past the windsheild to the front of the rear deck. I could seriously make money at a carnival betting people that I had speakers back there.

This is why I'm glad my car has a 7-band equalizer. I get to pinpoint what I want more and less of. None of my friends believe it's a stock head either, .

~Ryan

[Mendoza]

Aaron i am intrested in seeing your front sound stage setup. Do you by any chance have any pictures? I am still debating on how i am going to mount my rear speakers for 5.1 setup. If you have any suggestion i would love to hear them.