Finally Intercooled - Page 4

AleroB888 · 10-16-2006, 05:22 AM

To backtrack just a bit, since Sept.10th I have been using a 2.1 in. (2.125 actual) pulley on the SC, where previously a 2.2 in. (2.19 actual) was installed. This probably just made up for boost loss through the intercooler, but I have not done any detailed measurements yet. The alcohol injection system was redesigned, streamlined, and I believe much improved. Track times averaged about 14.2 to 14.4.

Test and Tune, Oct.11, '06 (Bandimere Speedway)
For this session I installed a 2.0 in. pulley on the SC. This pulley was an iron alternator pulley, and I had to make an adapter hub to use it. So it's not the lightest or best balanced, I'm sure, but good enough for short-term testing. To take up the slack in the belt, a 2.2 in. pulley was installed on the alternator. Out on the road, I was already impressed with this change. Before, the boost would peak out at 8 or 9 psi, then fall to 6 psi and hold steady. Now it peaked at 10 psi, then dropped to 7, but as the car accelerated, the boost increased back up to 8, then to 9, at which point we ran out of road. That was with the full exhaust system,
For the track tests, muffler and resonator were removed. Ambient temps. stayed around 60 deg.
The wheelspin was now severe, so after a few passes I decreased the base timing to +0 deg. and started to add timing at WOT in 2 degree increments:

+6 deg.....14.149 @ 96.00, 2.089 60 ft.
+8 deg.....14.113 @ 96.76, 2.102 60 ft.
+10 deg...14.104 @ 96.64, 2.111 60 ft.

******
Fall Racing Series, Oct. 14, '06, (Bandimere Speedway)
I went back to the track Saturday morning, as this was probably my last chance to run this year. I left the timing set at +10 WOT. Ambient temps between 60 and 70 deg.
1st trial......14.056 @ 97.43, 2.090 60 ft.
2nd trail.....14.092 @ 97.20, 2.097 60 ft.

Before the first round, Greg (dumbass) accidently unhooked the IC pump, so of course the car ran way off the dial-in.
1st Rd SP....14.163 @ 96.45, 2.088 60 ft.

Still trying to get into the 13's, and not wanting the season to end on a sour note, I ran down to the tech shed and coughed up another $40.00 to run in another class.
1st Rd Pro ET....14.028 @ 95.10, 2.046 60 ft.

Sprucegagt · 10-16-2006, 06:22 AM

How bad was the KR during those runs? It's odd that you ran a faster time when the outside temps were warmer (60-70*) instead of colder (60*).

AaronGTR · 10-16-2006, 07:58 AM

That could be attributed to traction. It's harder to get the tires to hook on a cold track, especially if he isn't using slicks.

99Alero_Boy · 10-16-2006, 04:44 PM

pretty sure he is running DRs

AaronGTR · 10-16-2006, 08:01 PM

Even DR's don't hook as well on a cold track.

SpyhunteR · 10-17-2006, 01:32 AM

DR's for the waste of money of the year award.

AaronGTR · 10-17-2006, 02:54 PM

Not a waste of money, just not as good as slicks... if you can use them.

If you don't have a tranny that will handle slicks, or can't fit 15" wheels with slicks (like me), then DR's are the next best thing. And I'm sure they are much better than the worn crappy all season performance radials I'm using, or even some good summer only tires (at least for straight line traction that is).

SpyhunteR · 10-17-2006, 03:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AaronGTR

Not a waste of money, just not as good as slicks... if you can use them.

If you don't have a tranny that will handle slicks, or can't fit 15" wheels with slicks (like me), then DR's are the next best thing. And I'm sure they are much better than the worn crappy all season performance radials I'm using, or even some good summer only tires (at least for straight line traction that is).

my tranny's stock. i know many guys that use slicks on an internally stock tranny. you just have to learn when to catch the tires on the tarmac so that they don't rip your cars guts out.

AleroB888 · 10-18-2006, 09:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sprucegagt

How bad was the KR during those runs?

When I can keep the ECT down to 165-175 deg. and the plenum temp. under control, and avoid wheelspin, KR is not a problem, though I have to admit I've done no scans since last June. The only glitch with the 2.0 pulley was that when the trans shifted from 1st to 2nd, there was a loud pop through the exhaust, but no sense of the car slowing down. But my thought is, if that engine was knockin', it wouldn't be rockin'.

AleroB888 · 10-30-2006, 08:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sprucegagt

How much boost are you running? If it is in double digits or close to it, those Envoy injectors won't cut it.

How about these as replacements, dimension-wise? The Accel types look like a close fit.

http://www.msdignition.com/fuel_5.htm

http://go.mrgasket.com/pdf/DFIFuelInjectors.pdf

AaronGTR · 10-30-2006, 10:00 AM

Why start experimenting with other injectors when we already know two larger sizes that will work? You can use the 36lb/hr injectors from the grand prix GTP or the 42lb/hr Lucas injectors you can get from ZZP or several other places. All you need is the correct harness connectors (bosch style) and we already know they fit and work well.

SpyhunteR · 10-30-2006, 10:25 AM

42lb's or bust.

AleroB888 · 10-31-2006, 12:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AaronGTR

Why start experimenting with other injectors when we already know two larger sizes that will work? You can use the 36lb/hr injectors from the grand prix GTP or the 42lb/hr Lucas injectors you can get from ZZP or several other places. All you need is the correct harness connectors (bosch style) and we already know they fit and work well.

I would like to use the 36#, but I thought I read elsewhere in the forum that xonelith had trouble getting the GTP's to fit. Is the 42# Lucas an exact size fit? If you are using them, how much did drivability suffer? I have an extra 1999 wiring harness that I can use if necessary.

AaronGTR · 10-31-2006, 07:39 AM

A few other people have used the 36# and claimed they fit fine. I've never installed them myself so I can't say. I'm using the 42#'s and they fit perfectly. Drivability is fine... it's all in how well you program the computer. If you have a '99 harness to use it should be an easy swap.

xonelith · 10-31-2006, 08:33 PM

The 36's do fit, but depending on the year you get the injectors from, they may be a bit shorter. Mine were from a 98 GTP and were a bit shorter (talking a mm or so), so the brackets were bent slightly to accomodate. Hasn't done anything detrimental yet. Also, Milzy sells a full setup for our motors with the 36's. I wish that was out before I did mine....LOL

AleroB888 · 11-06-2006, 01:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SpyhunteR

42lb's or bust.

Here is a scan graph with the Envoy injectors, taken on the highway with system at full operating temp., with ambient temp. in the 60's, IC water slightly above ambient.
As you can see, the Injectors are slightly maxed out.

The KR shown is more typical of a real-world situation, not the more ideal racetrack test conditions.

http://shutter09.pictures.aol.com/da...+C6jjT0300.jpg

Ordered the Lucas 42.5's from ZZP Tuesday morning, got them Thursday afternoon. After considerable trial and error, I set the IFR to 36., recalibrated the MAF. I did some scans earlier, and the Injector Duty Cycle now maxes out at about 60%. A lot of tuning remains to be done.

While I'm at it, here's some shots of the IM:

SikMindz · 11-06-2006, 02:16 AM

Whoa...cool. What's the diameter of the inlet?

Sprucegagt · 11-06-2006, 06:32 AM

Why so little boost at WOT? Your right to Envoy injectors are not doing a thing for you. Your KR should be 0 with the new 42.5 injectors. Just remember KR is an abnormal condition. If everything is tuned right, you should get no KR ever.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SikMindz

Whoa...cool. What's the diameter of the inlet?

If I had to guess I'd say 65 mm.

99Alero_Boy · 11-06-2006, 03:44 PM

i'm pretty sure it matches all the intercooler piping at 2.5 in...

SikMindz · 11-06-2006, 04:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 99Alero_Boy

i'm pretty sure it matches all the intercooler piping at 2.5 in...

*smack* Right..good point.

Doh!

10-16-2006, 05:22 AM	#61
AleroB888 not this alero AKA: Greg Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Fort Knox area, KY Age: 71 Posts: 1,301 Vehicle: 1999 Alero V6	To backtrack just a bit, since Sept.10th I have been using a 2.1 in. (2.125 actual) pulley on the SC, where previously a 2.2 in. (2.19 actual) was installed. This probably just made up for boost loss through the intercooler, but I have not done any detailed measurements yet. The alcohol injection system was redesigned, streamlined, and I believe much improved. Track times averaged about 14.2 to 14.4. Test and Tune, Oct.11, '06 (Bandimere Speedway) For this session I installed a 2.0 in. pulley on the SC. This pulley was an iron alternator pulley, and I had to make an adapter hub to use it. So it's not the lightest or best balanced, I'm sure, but good enough for short-term testing. To take up the slack in the belt, a 2.2 in. pulley was installed on the alternator. Out on the road, I was already impressed with this change. Before, the boost would peak out at 8 or 9 psi, then fall to 6 psi and hold steady. Now it peaked at 10 psi, then dropped to 7, but as the car accelerated, the boost increased back up to 8, then to 9, at which point we ran out of road. That was with the full exhaust system, For the track tests, muffler and resonator were removed. Ambient temps. stayed around 60 deg. The wheelspin was now severe, so after a few passes I decreased the base timing to +0 deg. and started to add timing at WOT in 2 degree increments: +6 deg.....14.149 @ 96.00, 2.089 60 ft. +8 deg.....14.113 @ 96.76, 2.102 60 ft. +10 deg...14.104 @ 96.64, 2.111 60 ft. ****** Fall Racing Series, Oct. 14, '06, (Bandimere Speedway) I went back to the track Saturday morning, as this was probably my last chance to run this year. I left the timing set at +10 WOT. Ambient temps between 60 and 70 deg. 1st trial......14.056 @ 97.43, 2.090 60 ft. 2nd trail.....14.092 @ 97.20, 2.097 60 ft. Before the first round, Greg (dumbass) accidently unhooked the IC pump, so of course the car ran way off the dial-in. 1st Rd SP....14.163 @ 96.45, 2.088 60 ft. Still trying to get into the 13's, and not wanting the season to end on a sour note, I ran down to the tech shed and coughed up another $40.00 to run in another class. 1st Rd Pro ET....14.028 @ 95.10, 2.046 60 ft. Last edited by AleroB888; 05-31-2009 at 03:52 AM.

10-16-2006, 06:22 AM	#62
Sprucegagt Schwartz Power! AKA: Andy Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Ranson, WV Age: 46 Posts: 2,027 Vehicle: 2000 Grand Am GT	How bad was the KR during those runs? It's odd that you ran a faster time when the outside temps were warmer (60-70) instead of colder (60). __________________ 2000 Grand Am GT (some day it will be SC/T) Mods: alot

10-16-2006, 07:58 AM	#63
AaronGTR BlingWithBallz AKA: Aaron Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Detroit area, MI Age: 43 Posts: 12,254 Vehicle: 2000 Grand Am GT1 2dr	That could be attributed to traction. It's harder to get the tires to hook on a cold track, especially if he isn't using slicks. __________________ The few, the proud, the boosted! 13.788 @ 103.73 mph (3/2011) 320 whp and 300 ft/lbs torque. (3/2011) See it here. the total package.

10-16-2006, 04:44 PM	#64
99Alero_Boy Oldz Sleeper AKA: Kyle Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Belle Fourche, SD Age: 37 Posts: 817 Vehicle: 2001 Olds Alero GL3	pretty sure he is running DRs __________________ Aleromod.com co-owner

10-16-2006, 08:01 PM	#65
AaronGTR BlingWithBallz AKA: Aaron Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Detroit area, MI Age: 43 Posts: 12,254 Vehicle: 2000 Grand Am GT1 2dr	Even DR's don't hook as well on a cold track. __________________ The few, the proud, the boosted! 13.788 @ 103.73 mph (3/2011) 320 whp and 300 ft/lbs torque. (3/2011) See it here. the total package.

10-17-2006, 01:32 AM	#66
SpyhunteR #1 hater AKA: Rob Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Las Vegas Age: 38 Posts: 4,968 Vehicle: 01' 2.4T GA / 08 TBSS	DR's for the waste of money of the year award. __________________ Hey kids going to Vegas? Let me help you help me help you! Shoot me an email or PM for all your Vegas Night Club bottle hallucinations & strip club desires! FACEBOOKFACE! "Understeer is when you hit the wall with the front of the car and oversteer is when you hit the wall with the rear of the car. Horsepower is how fast you hit the wall, torque is how far you take the wall with you."

10-17-2006, 02:54 PM	#67
AaronGTR BlingWithBallz AKA: Aaron Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Detroit area, MI Age: 43 Posts: 12,254 Vehicle: 2000 Grand Am GT1 2dr	Not a waste of money, just not as good as slicks... if you can use them. If you don't have a tranny that will handle slicks, or can't fit 15" wheels with slicks (like me), then DR's are the next best thing. And I'm sure they are much better than the worn crappy all season performance radials I'm using, or even some good summer only tires (at least for straight line traction that is). __________________ The few, the proud, the boosted! 13.788 @ 103.73 mph (3/2011) 320 whp and 300 ft/lbs torque. (3/2011) See it here. the total package.

10-30-2006, 10:00 AM	#71
AaronGTR BlingWithBallz AKA: Aaron Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Detroit area, MI Age: 43 Posts: 12,254 Vehicle: 2000 Grand Am GT1 2dr	Why start experimenting with other injectors when we already know two larger sizes that will work? You can use the 36lb/hr injectors from the grand prix GTP or the 42lb/hr Lucas injectors you can get from ZZP or several other places. All you need is the correct harness connectors (bosch style) and we already know they fit and work well. __________________ The few, the proud, the boosted! 13.788 @ 103.73 mph (3/2011) 320 whp and 300 ft/lbs torque. (3/2011) See it here. the total package.

10-30-2006, 10:25 AM	#72
SpyhunteR #1 hater AKA: Rob Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Las Vegas Age: 38 Posts: 4,968 Vehicle: 01' 2.4T GA / 08 TBSS	42lb's or bust. __________________ Hey kids going to Vegas? Let me help you help me help you! Shoot me an email or PM for all your Vegas Night Club bottle hallucinations & strip club desires! FACEBOOKFACE! "Understeer is when you hit the wall with the front of the car and oversteer is when you hit the wall with the rear of the car. Horsepower is how fast you hit the wall, torque is how far you take the wall with you."

10-31-2006, 07:39 AM	#74
AaronGTR BlingWithBallz AKA: Aaron Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Detroit area, MI Age: 43 Posts: 12,254 Vehicle: 2000 Grand Am GT1 2dr	A few other people have used the 36# and claimed they fit fine. I've never installed them myself so I can't say. I'm using the 42#'s and they fit perfectly. Drivability is fine... it's all in how well you program the computer. If you have a '99 harness to use it should be an easy swap. __________________ The few, the proud, the boosted! 13.788 @ 103.73 mph (3/2011) 320 whp and 300 ft/lbs torque. (3/2011) See it here. the total package.

10-31-2006, 08:33 PM	#75
xonelith All Motor AKA: Tim Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Whitby, Ontario Age: 48 Posts: 400 Vehicle: 2001 Grand Am GT1 Coup	The 36's do fit, but depending on the year you get the injectors from, they may be a bit shorter. Mine were from a 98 GTP and were a bit shorter (talking a mm or so), so the brackets were bent slightly to accomodate. Hasn't done anything detrimental yet. Also, Milzy sells a full setup for our motors with the 36's. I wish that was out before I did mine....LOL __________________ All Motor 2001 GA GT1 Best 1/8 - 9.104 @ 79.36 MPH Best 1/4 - 13.991 @ 99.13 MPH

11-06-2006, 03:44 PM	#79
99Alero_Boy Oldz Sleeper AKA: Kyle Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Belle Fourche, SD Age: 37 Posts: 817 Vehicle: 2001 Olds Alero GL3	i'm pretty sure it matches all the intercooler piping at 2.5 in... __________________ Aleromod.com co-owner

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