MMS sets yet another new 3400 NA record

[MilzyZ34]

Originally Posted by izayn

Milzy,

How much are you estimating it be for all the parts to go from a stock UIM LIM CAM and Head to stage 3?
Are you going to try to pull off 300hp before you start to sell?
When everything is ready how long is it from order to delivery?

A Stage 3 package would basically be the same as our Stage 2 package, but with different heads, cam, and pcm. The only major price difference would be the heads. Stage 2 package is $2650, and Stage 2 heads on their own are $1200. Therefor, I would expect a Stage 3 package to cost about $3450, maybe a little less. Other mods like cold air intake, exhaust, headers, and throttle body will be necessary to make max power with this setup. I may end up making these parts options in the Stage 3 package.

We're waiting probably until atleast spring to release the Stage 3 parts, simply to get some decent road and track testing in between now and then.

Our typical turn-around time on Stage 2 packages is about 4-5 weeks. The Stage 3 may take 1 week longer, but maybe not. There is significantly more porting and machinework which could cause the extra week.

[AaronGTR]

Originally Posted by MilzyZ34

The PCV system has been removed and replaced with breathers.

Bad idea. Some turbo guys remove it simply because of difficulty of plumbing the system to keep positive pressure out of the crank case. The PCV valve is supposed to act like a check valve but it doesn't seal all that well or hold much pressure. On an NA car though there's no reason to remove it. There's no performance advantage to doing so and with no suction from the intake you lose the ability to remove combustible contaminants from the crank case. That will lead to oil contamination, sludge formation, as well as higher fuel consumption and evaporative emmissions. You can put a breather on the rear cover, but the front should stay connected to the intake. If you have trouble with oil build up in the intake you can always put a catch can in the pcv line.

[MilzyZ34]

Originally Posted by AaronGTR

Bad idea. Some turbo guys remove it simply because of difficulty of plumbing the system to keep positive pressure out of the crank case. The PCV valve is supposed to act like a check valve but it doesn't seal all that well or hold much pressure. On an NA car though there's no reason to remove it. There's no performance advantage to doing so and with no suction from the intake you lose the ability to remove combustible contaminants from the crank case. That will lead to oil contamination, sludge formation, as well as higher fuel consumption and evaporative emmissions. You can put a breather on the rear cover, but the front should stay connected to the intake. If you have trouble with oil build up in the intake you can always put a catch can in the pcv line.

That's funny. Us L67 guys have been doing it for years now without issues. I've also never had any sludge in any car I've built or owned in the 6 years I've been doing this.

[AaronGTR]

http://www.autoshop101.com/forms/h63.pdf

Quick search turned that up. Similar to what I've read in my service manuals and some of my other books. Just because you guys have been doing it for years doesn't mean it's smart. If you change oil frequently enough and use higher quality oil (which most performance modding people are doing anyway) you won't notice as much of the negative affects on oil consistency. Thats doesn't mean it isn't still happening to a degree, and that you aren't still losing the other positive benefits of the pcv system. And again, if there is no performance gain to be had why remove it?

[MilzyZ34]

Originally Posted by AaronGTR

http://www.autoshop101.com/forms/h63.pdf

Quick search turned that up. Similar to what I've read in my service manuals and some of my other books. Just because you guys have been doing it for years doesn't mean it's smart. If you change oil frequently enough and use higher quality oil (which most performance modding people are doing anyway) you won't notice as much of the negative affects on oil consistency. Thats doesn't mean it isn't still happening to a degree, and that you aren't still losing the other positive benefits of the pcv system. And again, if there is no performance gain to be had why remove it?

from skimming that post it seems to me you're confusing having an open breather on the valvecovers with having no ventilation whatsoever. It says that the most blowby ventilation is needed at high engine speeds, which happens to be where vacuum is zero. During idle and deceleration, when vacuum would be the highest, "blowby production is very low". So basically we're venting off the crank case even more than the pcv valve is, during critical conditions. Now if we sealed the valvecovers off, that's when we would have the contamination problems the article talks about.

[Sprucegagt]

Are you two through yet? I hope so cause if not, well I'm sure you get the idea.

[AaronGTR]

Wrong. Blowby production is lower during idle and low rpm, that is correct. And yes there is less or no vacuum in the intake tract during higher rpm operation when the blowby is created so the pressure differential is not much different than open atmosphere. You aren't venting off the crank case anymore that way as you claim though. When there is no vacuum to pull it out it just accumulates in there and builds up until it eventually gets to the valve cover, and the process of evening out with the outside air is very slow and won't happen fully untill the engine is shut off. With the pcv system intact, the difference is when you let off the throttle there is once again vacuum in the intake to suck out those gases. So every time there is a throttle change the system balances. And again there is the point of re-burning those combustible gases as fuel for improved economy and not venting them to the air as more pollutants. And AGAIN, if there is no performance to be gained from eliminating it then why do it?

Bottom line is this. The amount of blow-by will vary depending on the engine build and how much power it's making, and how much it really needs a pcv system will depend on is normal operation range and usage, but basically for any car that is street driven and not a "track-only" car it should have a pcv system in place.

[AaronGTR]

Originally Posted by Sprucegagt

Are you two through yet? I hope so cause if not, well I'm sure you get the idea.

What? We're having a good technical discussion here with information that should prove useful to anyone interested in the operation of an engine. I thought thats what this section was for?

[Sprucegagt]

You sure about that. Your posts sure do sound like your attacking Milzy.

[AaronGTR]

Attacking him how? Am I saying anything bad about him personally? I'm saying it's a bad idea to remove the pcv system and giving reasons why. That sounds like a technical discussion to me. Why would I attack him?... I bought one of his friggin' cams after all. I think it's awesome what he's doing with these cars and give him props all the time. That doesn't mean I can't disagree with him on something and think he shouldn't say it's ok to remove an emmissions system from a street car.

[Sprucegagt]

You made your point. Just don't let it get out of hand.

[CUSTOMGAGT2000SEDAN]

i would setle for 300 hp . is that at the weels or crank? the most wheel hp and torque you can get would suit me . and if it is not too crazy a total pricce .

and if i professional engine mechanic any / most types of car repair places could do easyily enough. because i know nothing about do this work nor do i know anyone in particular to do it . other then my gm dealer or find a performance or engine shop ??

[MilzyZ34]

Originally Posted by Sprucegagt

Are you two through yet? I hope so cause if not, well I'm sure you get the idea.

I don't think that we're arguing, just having a discussion. Does it seem like we are?

[MilzyZ34]

Aaron, I think we disagree on a few things. I don't think that the fact there is vacuum at idle drastically affects the amount of contaminates removed by the pcv or breathers. All of our camshafts reduce engine vacuum, so if that's the case, all of our cams will cause a loss in pcv efficiency in idle, according to what you're saying. I have customers out there who've put 100k miles on their cammed 3400's, with only regular maintenance (3k mile oil changes, etc). if there was a major problem with this, these cars would have bottom end damage by now, would you agree? This particular cam decreases engine vacuum to 8-10 inHg at idle, so the vacuum is already 1/2 of what it was anyways with the pcv system intact. Now at high blowby conditions, our breathers have the potential to flow more than the pcv system does. You also asked why remove the system ... I feel that any non-pure elements introduced into the intake manifold would only negatively affect the performance of the engine, so EGR and PCV have both been removed so that the only things going into the intake manifold are the fuel from the injectors and the air from the intake tube. You may disagree with my removal of the PCV and/or EGR, but I stand by my decision to delete them, and I think I've supported my reasons why.

[MilzyZ34]

Originally Posted by CUSTOMGAGT2000SEDAN

i would setle for 300 hp . is that at the weels or crank? the most wheel hp and torque you can get would suit me . and if it is not too crazy a total pricce .

and if i professional engine mechanic any / most types of car repair places could do easyily enough. because i know nothing about do this work nor do i know anyone in particular to do it . other then my gm dealer or find a performance or engine shop ??

300 crank hp, roughly equivalent to 240whp.

I doubt the GM dealer would want to touch the job, and if they did, they would offer no warrantee whatsoever. Any competent engine mechanic or engine machine shop would be able to handle the job no problem. We also offer installs in house, prices can be found on the website under "Services".

[Vegeta]

How long have the cams been out now? 100k miles on a cam?

[timberwoof]

Okay I think I missed something. Now you guys are talking about stage 3 setups.

What's new on this setup compared to the 2?

[MilzyZ34]

Originally Posted by Vegeta

How long have the cams been out now? 100k miles on a cam?

April of 2005 is when I started installing them. Maybe it was 90k, I think my km to miles conversion factor was a little off, but yeah I do have customers who drive 5k miles/month. Tim Kaczun with his 13 sec GT is one of them.

[MilzyZ34]

Originally Posted by timberwoof

Okay I think I missed something. Now you guys are talking about stage 3 setups.

What's new on this setup compared to the 2?

well the short version is...

heads - big valves, heavier springs and valvetrain, more portwork

cam - more lift, more duration, more overlap

[Vegeta]

good because I was starting to worry about your cams. I take it they are cast billet then, or the gear would destroy the iron gear on the oil pump drive.