Remove the PCV system for performance?

[MilzyZ34]

Originally Posted by silvergtjrad

Case closed. It can be harmful to the engine internals, and there arent any noteworthy performance gains.

Where exactly does it say that?

Here would be what my setup would be considered ...

"Open PCV Systems
The open system draws fresh air though a vented oil filler cap. This presents no problem as long as the vapor volume is minimal. However, when the crankcase vapor becomes excessive it is forced back through the vented oil filler cap and into the open atmosphere. The open PCV system, though successful at removing contaminated vapors from the crankcase, is not completely effective as a pollution control device"

[AaronGTR]

Originally Posted by MilzyZ34

Where exactly does it say that?

Here would be what my setup would be considered ...

"Open PCV Systems
The open system draws fresh air though a vented oil filler cap. This presents no problem as long as the vapor volume is minimal. However, when the crankcase vapor becomes excessive it is forced back through the vented oil filler cap and into the open atmosphere. The open PCV system, though successful at removing contaminated vapors from the crankcase, is not completely effective as a pollution control device"

Eh, wrong. What they are saying is that the intake for the open pcv system is a breather, but the outlet is still connected to the intake manifold for vacuum. The closed system has the inlet connected to the intake tube in front of the TB, just how our stock system is. You are completely eliminating all hookups to the intake manifold, so your setup would be neither.

[MilzyZ34]

Originally Posted by AaronGTR

Eh, wrong. What they are saying is that the intake for the open pcv system is a breather, but the outlet is still connected to the intake manifold for vacuum. The closed system has the inlet connected to the intake tube in front of the TB, just how our stock system is. You are completely eliminating all hookups to the intake manifold, so your setup would be neither.

Uh, I think you're mistaken on that one. if that was the case, this vented oil filler cap (aka breather) would be allowing the supposed tube going to the intake manifold to suck in unmetered air from atmosphere.

[KPimm]

Mike, don't get me wrong, I think what you are doing for the GA community is great. And eventhough I don't have any of your products, it appears that you put a lot of thought into making good stuff. I just don't understand why someone with your knowledge won't see the facts that removing the PCV is useless for anybody here. There are cases where removing the PCV is good and sometimes necessary, but not for any 3400 V6 street vehicle. All of this thought and time could be used for better purposes, but i guess that's just my opinion.

[bszopi]

YEA!!! Finally, one person bows out of the "my internet penis is bigger than yours" match.

[AaronGTR]

Originally Posted by MilzyZ34

Uh, I think you're mistaken on that one. if that was the case, this vented oil filler cap (aka breather) would be allowing the supposed tube going to the intake manifold to suck in unmetered air from atmosphere.

Yes, on a MAF equiped vehicle that would be the case. That article says nothing about MAF operation though. It does say that older cars used the open setup but newer cars use the closed setup for tighter emissions control. Older cars didn't use MAF's so it probably wasn't an issue when they used open setups with a breather on the intake side and a tube on the suction side as there would be no air metering. On newer cars with air meters they use closed systems so there is no unmetered air entering the system.

Again, I really don't see how you can't get this. It is very logical and it is laid out right there in the article in plain english.

[MilzyZ34]

Originally Posted by AaronGTR

Yes, on a MAF equiped vehicle that would be the case. That article says nothing about MAF operation though. It does say that older cars used the open setup but newer cars use the closed setup for tighter emissions control. Older cars didn't use MAF's so it probably wasn't an issue when they used open setups with a breather on the intake side and a tube on the suction side as there would be no air metering. On newer cars with air meters they use closed systems so there is no unmetered air entering the system.

Again, I really don't see how you can't get this. It is very logical and it is laid out right there in the article in plain english.

a tube leading to the intake manifold from atmophere would create a vacuum leak, whether fuel injected or not.

[xonelith]

Well, seeing as i have this 'breather' system currently setup, I can give some actual experience.

1. Car stinks..... fumes coming off the breathers are coming into the vent system of the car. If you don't mind the smell of oil.....

2. Lots of sludge now residing in my engine bay. Coming off the filter, particularly the one off the rear. Not sure if this has to do with all the idle (stuck in frickin Toronto traffic all day), but a mess, none the less.

3. Not sure about power gains. At this time, I don't notice it.

Conclusion. I'm going back to stock.

As for the discussion above, please keep posting guys, i'm interested as I'm learning stuff.

Thanks
-xon

[Mike Jung]

Originally Posted by xonelith

Well, seeing as i have this 'breather' system currently setup, I can give some actual experience.
...
2. Lots of sludge now residing in my engine bay. Coming off the filter, particularly the one off the rear. Not sure if this has to do with all the idle (stuck in frickin Toronto traffic all day), but a mess, none the less.
...

From my earlier post

Originally Posted by Mike Jung

Fuel dilution & water dilution in the motor oil is a bad idea.
Which will kill the oil's additive package prematurely.
Which could lead to more engine wear.

Worst case senerio:
Leave the oil change interval too long.
& the oil breaks down to sludge !!!

Yes, cold temperature enivironments & alot of city driving/idling does have alot to do with it also.
You don't get the oil temps up to a temp long enough to get rid of the condensation build-up.

I am finding even at stock:
I am seeing some condensation build-up under the oil cap area.
But if I drive around to get it up to normal operating temperatures; & then hit the highway for 30-minutes.
It is all gone.

PS: & if you have real sludge in your engine...you got bigger problems than condensation build-up.
YOUR OIL IS BREAKING DOWN !!!

[MilzyZ34]

Originally Posted by xonelith

Well, seeing as i have this 'breather' system currently setup, I can give some actual experience.

1. Car stinks..... fumes coming off the breathers are coming into the vent system of the car. If you don't mind the smell of oil.....

2. Lots of sludge now residing in my engine bay. Coming off the filter, particularly the one off the rear. Not sure if this has to do with all the idle (stuck in frickin Toronto traffic all day), but a mess, none the less.

3. Not sure about power gains. At this time, I don't notice it.

Conclusion. I'm going back to stock.

As for the discussion above, please keep posting guys, i'm interested as I'm learning stuff.

Thanks
-xon

Well I'm sorry the breathers poluted your engine bay, but it looks like they're doing they're job of keeping the oil and contaminates oout of the intake manifold. Plumbing the valvercovers into a catch can would eliminate the splattering around the filters, and the smell in the cabin.

[xonelith]

Originally Posted by Mike Jung

From my earlier post

Yes, cold temperature enivironments & alot of city driving/idling does have alot to do with it also.
You don't get the oil temps up to a temp long enough to get rid of the condensation build-up.

I am finding even at stock:
I am seeing some condensation build-up under the oil cap area.
But if I drive around to get it up to normal operating temperatures; & then hit the highway for 30-minutes.
It is all gone.

PS: & if you have real sludge in your engine...you got bigger problems than condensation build-up.
YOUR OIL IS BREAKING DOWN !!!

Completely agree. I change my oil religiously at every 5k km's (royal purple). Oil seems good, and does not appear broken down at all.

Cold weather crap is surely the root of my sludge issue, and I have noticed that no sludge is present when i'm driving at normal/consistent speeds.

-xon

[cardude007617]

Originally Posted by xonelith

3. Not sure about power gains. At this time, I don't notice it.

Conclusion. I'm going back to stock.

sounds like enough for me to not do it.....

[KPimm]

Originally Posted by bszopi

YEA!!! Finally, one person bows out of the "my internet penis is bigger than yours" match.

I didn't really bow out, I'm just trying to keep the debate to a professional level. I still disagree 100% with removing the PCV system in a street driven vehicle. I just don't want him to think I'm just here bashing his ideas and/or product line.

[MilzyZ34]

Originally Posted by KPimm

I didn't really bow out, I'm just trying to keep the debate to a professional level. I still disagree 100% with removing the PCV system in a street driven vehicle. I just don't want him to think I'm just here bashing his ideas and/or product line.

And I appreciate your professionalism. I'm glad we're able to debate without tempers being flared, something that usually ends up happening on posts like this.

I know I've said this before, so I apoligize for repeating myself, but here is the basis of my argument ... The PCV system allows hot and dirty air, oil, and contaminates into the intake manifold, which is not ideal for making horsepower. I know you disagree with my reasons for removing PCV, and I agree that the difference is not huge, but there is a difference between the tainted intake charge and burning cooler fresh air and fuel. I concede that venting these contaminates to atmosphere is not good for the environment, but I've stated my case on the difference between stock and this setup, and I'm still convinced that when it comes to horsepower, it's better to keep the PCV system out of the intake manifold. I admit that the system on Tim's car isn't perfect. I'd personally do it the way i did on the Stage 3 NA car we did ... -10AN bungs welded to the valvecovers, then -10 line ran to a catch-can in the fender. This would solve the problems with oil splatter and smell.

[AaronGTR]

Originally Posted by MilzyZ34

a tube leading to the intake manifold from atmophere would create a vacuum leak, whether fuel injected or not.

Yeah, and? Even the closed PCV system with the inlet side plumbed to the intake tube in front of the TB is technically taking air from the outside atmosphere and could be considered a vacuum leak. Thats why we have the IAC. The issue in question had nothing to do with vacuum leaks but whether or not the air was metered. Stop trying to redirect peoples attention off the fact that your where wrong about it.

Originally Posted by MilzyZ34

I know I've said this before, so I apoligize for repeating myself, but here is the basis of my argument ... The PCV system allows hot and dirty air, oil, and contaminates into the intake manifold, which is not ideal for making horsepower. I know you disagree with my reasons for removing PCV, and I agree that the difference is not huge, but there is a difference between the tainted intake charge and burning cooler fresh air and fuel. I concede that venting these contaminates to atmosphere is not good for the environment, but I've stated my case on the difference between stock and this setup, and I'm still convinced that when it comes to horsepower, it's better to keep the PCV system out of the intake manifold.

The air coming in from the PCV is no hotter than the intake manifold is and it's such a small volume it won't affect the temperature or density of the intake charge. That argument is pointless. Anyway, why do you keep repeating yourself when you have no research to back up your claims? Yeah we know you think it's better for making HP. You have no proof of this though and nothing but theories, while everyone else here is going by well researched and commonly known automotive knowledge. I guess I just don't get why someone would be so stubbornly stupid.

[MilzyZ34]

Originally Posted by AaronGTR

Yeah, and? Even the closed PCV system with the inlet side plumbed to the intake tube in front of the TB is technically taking air from the outside atmosphere and could be considered a vacuum leak. Thats why we have the IAC. The issue in question had nothing to do with vacuum leaks but whether or not the air was metered. Stop trying to redirect peoples attention off the fact that your where wrong about it.



The air coming in from the PCV is no hotter than the intake manifold is and it's such a small volume it won't affect the temperature or density of the intake charge. That argument is pointless. Anyway, why do you keep repeating yourself when you have no research to back up your claims? Yeah we know you think it's better for making HP. You have no proof of this though and nothing but theories, while everyone else here is going by well researched and commonly known automotive knowledge. I guess I just don't get why someone would be so stubbornly stupid.

open your oil fill cap with the engine running and see if the engine stumbles because of a vacuum leak.

Why do I keep repeating myself? How much of an argument do i have to give to prove my point?

I suppose you could debate the temperature difference between the crankcase and the intake manifold until someone actually measures the temperature difference between the two, but would you agree that the oil is definately not cooling the intake down? If the intake temperature is cooler at all, even by only 10 degrees, it will make more horsepower. Do you disagree that colder intake temp increases hp or do you want me to explain that too? And do you really think that an intake charge that has been tainted with these contaminates is capable of making the same exact amount of power as a fresh intake charge with nice clean air and fuel? It's apparent you disagree with me, but surely you can agree with me on these facts.

[Vegeta]

Would someone PLEASE close this thread.

[MilzyZ34]

Originally Posted by Vegeta

Would someone PLEASE close this thread.

I don't see the reason to close it. Most of us aren't bickering on here, we're just having a debate.

It appears that both sides aren't going to concede, so I guess maybe we should agree to disagree. Maybe I'm having deja vu, but i thought we did this before?

[torq455]

The amount of PCV air not being metered by the MAF is so little it won't affect anything. It only works under moderate to high vacuum. So how it gains enough HP over half throttle is beyond me. However, I do agree with the fact the PCV evacuation into the manifold is for emissions, same as the charcoal canister. It's not there to add power or mileage, but to burn whatever unburnt gases are left behind. I got rid of my PCV in my 94 Z24 since it was causing excessive oil to be blown or sucked into my intake actually soaking my air filter. Not anymore! However, it is a temporary fix. The other reasoning behind PCV removal was the positive crankcase pressure that builds up during long WOT periods. Pressure will build up in the crank case since the PCV only works under vacuum, so the breather is another way to vent the positive pressure. How removing that system can ruin bearings is beyond me. If you get the oil over 212 degrees for a few minutes, that will burn off impurities.

[Mike Jung]

Originally Posted by Mike Jung

x2

Fuel dilution & water dilution in the motor oil is a bad idea.
Which will kill the oil's additive package prematurely.
Which could lead to more engine wear.

Worst case senerio:
Leave the oil change interval too long.
& the oil breaks down to sludge !!!


The Audi RS4 & BMW 335i are really having problems with fuel dilution.
With them using direct injection on the engine.
According to what I read on BITOG forums.
Best oil for BMW 335i N54 twin turbo?
A owner was killing his oil in 1K miles, while having a hot laps track day.

Originally Posted by torq455

The amount of PCV air not being metered by the MAF is so little it won't affect anything. It only works under moderate to high vacuum. So how it gains enough HP over half throttle is beyond me. However, I do agree with the fact the PCV evacuation into the manifold is for emissions, same as the charcoal canister. It's not there to add power or mileage, but to burn whatever unburnt gases are left behind. I got rid of my PCV in my 94 Z24 since it was causing excessive oil to be blown or sucked into my intake actually soaking my air filter. Not anymore! However, it is a temporary fix. The other reasoning behind PCV removal was the positive crankcase pressure that builds up during long WOT periods. Pressure will build up in the crank case since the PCV only works under vacuum, so the breather is another way to vent the positive pressure. How removing that system can ruin bearings is beyond me. If you get the oil over 212 degrees for a few minutes, that will burn off impurities.

Fuel dilution will kill the motor oil prematurely.

What is the burn off point for gasoline ?


PS: Tell that to the BMW 335i (with twin turbo, direct injection, 3.0L I-6 engines) owners that have have hot running engines; that run way over 212°F/100°C oil temps.

Originally Posted by reb03

...I have a 2007 335i. Normal operating oil temps for this car are ~240 degrees F. But on the track the oil gets warm...really warm. At Willow Springs Raceway at my last driving school oil temps reached 285-290 degrees...

Example of fuel dilution in a motor oil from a '07 BMW 335i:

Originally Posted by Terry Dyson

...reb03, I have customers running BMW5w30, M1 0w40 all with the same effect, the wear control is good if we change the oil at 1000 mile intervals but the deposit formation from REAL volatility issues are slowly damaging the engines. I just worked a 07 335 Biturbo yesterday USING ASTM lab tests on the used oil and M1 0w40 went from VOA flash of 430+F to 240 F in 1150 miles, oil sheared to 12.1 cSt and fuel was at 1.99% by IR. Amsoil has not been tested in this engine yet. Because Amsoil is a traditional based PAO I predict similar results to the M1 0w40 which is still one of few M1 products that can perform reasonably well...

For those who don't know who Terry Dyson is, see: http://www.dysonanalysis.com/aboutus.html