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Old 09-05-2008, 11:15 PM   #1
AleroB888
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Fuel Injector Upgrades

Posted this over at Aleromod, thought there might be some interest here....

1) OEM # 25313185
Blazer, Envoy, Bravada / 28 lb/hr
2) Stock 1999 Alero V6 / 19 lb/hr
3) RC Engineering SL2-370 / 35 lb/hr
4) Lucas 42.5 / lb/hr





Notes (results may not be typical / running at high altitude / stock fuel pump) :

1) Envoy Injectors (4-hole nozzle)
I have had great results with these -- excellent drivability. When I first got them they worked well enough without reprogramming the computer -- initially threw a "rich" code, but adjusted itself out. I am the 3rd owner of them. Even though often run up to 108% duty cycle, seem to perform better than their flow rating.

2) Stock 1999 (6-hole nozzle)

3) RC Engineering SL2-370
These came with a flow rating for each injector, as if they had been individually tested before shipment. According to the data sent with them, they were matched within + or minus 1 cc (!) Three flowed at 370, two at 369, and one at 371 cc, said the chart. They didn't indicate which was which, but if they were that close, it wouldn't matter. The first time I ran them in the car, I thought "Wow, they're great ! " Midrange up to WOT was smooth, powerful, had a precision feel. But soon, as the car warmed up and the computer settled in, an off-idle stumble developed. Not just from a standing start, but also a hesitation when stabbing the throttle from a low rpm cruise. This was accompanied by a little black smoke out of the tailpipe each time, and random misfires but no codes thrown.

Edit: This result may not have been due to the injectors, as I had a problem with the SC at the time, and have not done a retest.

4) Lucas 42.5's
I got these from ZZP over a year ago, not flow matched. I ran them through the Winter and into the Spring. In colder weather during startups, I got misfire codes thrown, but no SES light. After warmup, no codes appeared. In spite of that, the car idled OK and did not hesitate or stumble. Performance seemed to be generally good. But then, one day at the track, the # 5 Injector stuck open. Performance at the track that day had been subpar, but until it failed completely it was not obvious exactly why. The car had to be towed home. When I called ZZP and asked to get one replacement, the guy said they can only be purchased in a full set.

I got a Walbro 255 LPH fuel pump installed, gave it a day for the computer to settle things in, and did a scan. It seemed to make the 28 lb. injectors work even better, and I should have left them in to see if the pump change would gain anything at the track. However, I was anxious to try out some other injectors I found in a salvage yard, so I changed them out the next day.

5) OEM # 0280155737
1996 Buick Riv SC, M90, GTP, etc. / 36 lb/hr
6) OEM # 0280150934
1992 Buick SC, M62, etc. / 28 lb/hr





5) 1996 Buick Riv M90 (4-hole nozzle)
I have only had these in a day and a half, and it's been raining most of that time, so the testing is far from done. No problems with drivability have shown up yet, but it's too soon to judge the WOT performance. No codes thrown.
Edit: Wound up having the hesitation issues as with the RC's, but again it may have been due to the SC problem. Soon after the testing my first Walbro pump failed. No retest as of yet.

6) 1992 Buick M62 (4-hole nozzle)
I'm just including these as a curiosity, I picked them up not knowing what their flow rate was. The only info I found was in some forums stating they were 28 lb/hr. They would fit, though, if you wanted to use them, and there are some aftermarket units in the same configuration.
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Magnuson MP90 / TOG's / 3 in. Magnaflow exhaust / MSD ignition / LS1 MAF / Racetronix pump / HP Tuners / TCE 68mm TB / 36 lb Inj
= Best track time: 12.951 @ 104.48, 1.839 60 ft. (Beech Bend Raceway Park, 11-23-13), 50 Deg. F
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpVYZPbpPzk

Last edited by AleroB888; 11-08-2008 at 10:34 PM.
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Old 09-05-2008, 11:19 PM   #2
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wow great post, Is the numbers for the first 4 in order from left to right? If so the stock injectors for the 99's are huge compared to the trailblazer ones. On my 01, the trailblazer and stock injectors were almost identical.
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Old 09-05-2008, 11:59 PM   #3
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wow great post, Is the numbers for the first 4 in order from left to right? If so the stock injectors for the 99's are huge compared to the trailblazer ones. On my 01, the trailblazer and stock injectors were almost identical.
Yeah, that's right, the first one is the trailblazer, and also has a different electrical connector than the '99.
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Magnuson MP90 / TOG's / 3 in. Magnaflow exhaust / MSD ignition / LS1 MAF / Racetronix pump / HP Tuners / TCE 68mm TB / 36 lb Inj
= Best track time: 12.951 @ 104.48, 1.839 60 ft. (Beech Bend Raceway Park, 11-23-13), 50 Deg. F
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpVYZPbpPzk
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Old 09-06-2008, 12:02 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by AleroB888 View Post
Yeah, that's right, the first one is the trailblazer, and also has a different electrical connector than the '99.
thise things are huge looking . I dont know if you have it in there but for 00 or 01 and up guys the trailblazers drop right in and plug to the stock harness.
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Old 09-06-2008, 12:14 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by boost21 View Post
thise things are huge looking . I dont know if you have it in there but for 00 or 01 and up guys the trailblazers drop right in and plug to the stock harness.
That's true, and for the others listed you would need the '99 harness.

The '99 FPR also runs about 10-15 psi less fuel pressure than the later models, and the later fuel pumps are rated higher as well.
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1999 GLS MP90 supercharged / 2003 GL MP62 supercharged / 2004 GLS stock
Magnuson MP90 / TOG's / 3 in. Magnaflow exhaust / MSD ignition / LS1 MAF / Racetronix pump / HP Tuners / TCE 68mm TB / 36 lb Inj
= Best track time: 12.951 @ 104.48, 1.839 60 ft. (Beech Bend Raceway Park, 11-23-13), 50 Deg. F
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpVYZPbpPzk
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Old 09-06-2008, 02:19 PM   #6
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Good info man. Question about the RC injectors, do you know if they are pintle or disc type? They look like they're probably disc. Would be good to know since disc type usually can handle higher duty cycle than pintle type.

The thing I like about the OEM pintle type injectors though is the multi-hole spray pattern. Not as good for high rpm as the disc type, but they give much better fuel atomization and idle quality at low rpm and if you get a big enough injector you don't necessarily need that extra 5-10% duty cycle anyway. I'm thinking of trying the 36lb GTP injectors myself to try and improve the driveability of my car. I think the lucas 42lb'ers I'm using are a bit overkill for my boost level as I can see as low as 11.3:1 AFR's at WOT.
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Old 09-06-2008, 04:01 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AaronGTR View Post
Good info man. Question about the RC injectors, do you know if they are pintle or disc type? They look like they're probably disc. Would be good to know since disc type usually can handle higher duty cycle than pintle type.

The thing I like about the OEM pintle type injectors though is the multi-hole spray pattern. Not as good for high rpm as the disc type, but they give much better fuel atomization and idle quality at low rpm and if you get a big enough injector you don't necessarily need that extra 5-10% duty cycle anyway. I'm thinking of trying the 36lb GTP injectors myself to try and improve the driveability of my car. I think the lucas 42lb'ers I'm using are a bit overkill for my boost level as I can see as low as 11.3:1 AFR's at WOT.
No, I don't know anything about the finer points of their design, my reference material is back home as well. Maybe someone can chime in with more facts on that.

I'm thinking the base fuel pressure level will have an effect on atomization. Also, I have read that if the injector does not open far enough (at idle, low IPW), the pattern will be affected.

If the car survives this trip, I'll try the 36's again, and if those work, I'll retest the RC's.

I'm surprised that nobody noticed the modification to the 36 lb-ers....
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1999 GLS MP90 supercharged / 2003 GL MP62 supercharged / 2004 GLS stock
Magnuson MP90 / TOG's / 3 in. Magnaflow exhaust / MSD ignition / LS1 MAF / Racetronix pump / HP Tuners / TCE 68mm TB / 36 lb Inj
= Best track time: 12.951 @ 104.48, 1.839 60 ft. (Beech Bend Raceway Park, 11-23-13), 50 Deg. F
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpVYZPbpPzk
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Old 09-24-2008, 12:39 PM   #8
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what year of the trailblazers injectors are good for the 99 GAGT
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Old 09-24-2008, 12:58 PM   #9
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what year of the trailblazers injectors are good for the 99 GAGT
2002-2004, Trailblazer, Envoy, Bravada, L6, 4.2 liter

http://www.herkofilters.com/INJECTOR...RY%20GUIDE.pdf

(I haven't bought any there, just using it as a reference.)

The '99 will also need a later model GrandAm wiring harness.
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Magnuson MP90 / TOG's / 3 in. Magnaflow exhaust / MSD ignition / LS1 MAF / Racetronix pump / HP Tuners / TCE 68mm TB / 36 lb Inj
= Best track time: 12.951 @ 104.48, 1.839 60 ft. (Beech Bend Raceway Park, 11-23-13), 50 Deg. F
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpVYZPbpPzk
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Old 09-24-2008, 01:23 PM   #10
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Thanks
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Old 09-24-2008, 02:31 PM   #11
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I'm just wondering but is there a positive to adding bigger injectors to a stock setup? No CAI or upgraded PCM or anything. Would it be the same or better or even worse?
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Old 09-24-2008, 02:37 PM   #12
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I'm just wondering but is there a positive to adding bigger injectors to a stock setup? No CAI or upgraded PCM or anything. Would it be the same or better or even worse?
you need to calibrate it for extra fuel by tuning the pcm with the flow rates. If not your car will probibly run like a rich pig
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Old 09-24-2008, 03:33 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by 99GTCoupe View Post
I'm just wondering but is there a positive to adding bigger injectors to a stock setup? No CAI or upgraded PCM or anything. Would it be the same or better or even worse?
Don't do it unless you are definitely going to upgrade the car from stock (or if you run E85 for some reason). In that case, you might install the bigger injectors and see if drivability, emissions control is maintained prior to the other mods. It can make things worse, but results will vary from one vehicle to another.
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1999 GLS MP90 supercharged / 2003 GL MP62 supercharged / 2004 GLS stock
Magnuson MP90 / TOG's / 3 in. Magnaflow exhaust / MSD ignition / LS1 MAF / Racetronix pump / HP Tuners / TCE 68mm TB / 36 lb Inj
= Best track time: 12.951 @ 104.48, 1.839 60 ft. (Beech Bend Raceway Park, 11-23-13), 50 Deg. F
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpVYZPbpPzk

Last edited by AleroB888; 09-24-2008 at 03:36 PM.
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Old 09-24-2008, 03:35 PM   #14
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to the OP, i really hope you tuned the pcm to run each of these injectors otherwise just installing them with out telling the car you have a higher or lower flow rate then what it thinks is in there, you could be causing damage to your car, in over rich or lean conditions depending on the flow rate thats in the pcm currently. the computer opens the injector based on how much fuel it "knows" is gonna go into the motor based on the fixed flow rate. when you put a larger flowing unit in, the computer is thinking its adding the right amount of fuel yet in reality you are getting way over fueled.

judging by your wright up, and the problems you were having with codes, rich conditions and driveability issues you did not tune for the different injectors, in fact im pretty confident you lost power and mileage across the board the further away from the computers flow rate you added. id check your plugs for excessive fouling, that might explain your misfire problems. any compensation and driveability increase you felt was likely the computer finally figuring out that there is way more fuel entering then its supposed to and compensating with "leaning" out the tune through the BLM's in the maps. the rough driving you mentioned when it warmed up was most likely the car going from open loop to closed loop once the various sensors came into operating temp. therefore using the maf readings and o2 readings, then it saw it was pig rich and had to adjust the fuel tables within its means to try and balance out the discrepancy.

when you add a larger injector to the motor its to adequately supply the motor with the required fuel for WOT situations generally. in v8's (where im familiar) when you tune the car to run a bigger injector, all it does is shorten the duty cycles because the added flow means the injector cycle doesn't have to be open as long to add the required fuel into the motor. a fully functioning injector tuned to a motor shouldnt have any real effect on drive ability (save for REALLY large injectors) and "add" power like you are mentioning, its just there to get the required fuel into the motor at rate/amount that is needed.

also changing to a high flow fuel pump should have no effect on your setup whatsoever, the fuel pressure regulator determines what pressure the injectors see, any added flowrate of fuel will just be returned to the tank at a increased return volume over stock due to the extra flow capacity when not using the fuel.

on a side note" 108% duty cycle is nuts, and dangerous IMO, 80-85% is the max you should really go for safety/reliability/and injector accuracy is concerned, which means tuning a larger injector into the pcm with the correct flow rates.
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Old 09-24-2008, 03:43 PM   #15
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kk thanks
I figured there would be something extra to do, I just wanted to be sure ^^
Wasn't ever planning to do this, though, either haha
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Old 09-24-2008, 04:08 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by silver2001GT View Post
to the OP, i really hope you tuned the pcm to run each of these injectors
Yes, I did....and did literally dozens of scans on the road and at the track.

Quote:
Originally Posted by silver2001GT View Post
id check your plugs for excessive fouling, that might explain your misfire problems. ...............
That's a good idea, and sometimes it can't be tuned out, if the pulse width is too small at idle.
Quote:
Originally Posted by silver2001GT View Post
the rough driving you mentioned when it warmed up was most likely the car going from open loop to closed loop once the various sensors came into operating temp. therefore using the maf readings and o2 readings, then it saw it was pig rich and had to adjust the fuel tables within its means to try and balance out the discrepancy.
Nope, had nothing to do with that....

Quote:
Originally Posted by silver2001GT View Post
when you add a larger injector to the motor its to adequately supply the motor with the required fuel for WOT situations generally. in v8's (where im familiar) when you tune the car to run a bigger injector, all it does is shorten the duty cycles because the added flow means the injector cycle doesn't have to be open as long to add the required fuel into the motor. a fully functioning injector tuned to a motor shouldnt have any real effect on drive ability (save for REALLY large injectors) and "add" power like you are mentioning, its just there to get the required fuel into the motor at rate/amount that is needed.
That's obvious, but when the IPW is too low, atomization, therefore drivability can be affected.

Quote:
Originally Posted by silver2001GT View Post
also changing to a high flow fuel pump should have no effect on your setup whatsoever, the fuel pressure regulator determines what pressure the injectors see, any added flowrate of fuel will just be returned to the tank at a increased return volume over stock due to the extra flow capacity when not using the fuel.
:: Pumps have different pressure and volume capabilities...The '99 pump's being quite low. There are different types of regulators as well.


Quote:
Originally Posted by silver2001GT View Post
on a side note" 108% duty cycle is nuts, and dangerous IMO, 80-85% is the max you should really go for safety/reliability/and injector accuracy is concerned, which means tuning a larger injector into the pcm with the correct flow rates.
Hence the need to upgrade......the bottom line is the AFR that results.
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1999 GLS MP90 supercharged / 2003 GL MP62 supercharged / 2004 GLS stock
Magnuson MP90 / TOG's / 3 in. Magnaflow exhaust / MSD ignition / LS1 MAF / Racetronix pump / HP Tuners / TCE 68mm TB / 36 lb Inj
= Best track time: 12.951 @ 104.48, 1.839 60 ft. (Beech Bend Raceway Park, 11-23-13), 50 Deg. F
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpVYZPbpPzk
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Old 09-24-2008, 04:31 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by AleroB888 View Post
Yes, I did....and did literally dozens of scans on the road and at the track.



That's a good idea, and sometimes it can't be tuned out, if the pulse width is too small at idle.


Nope, had nothing to do with that....



That's obvious, but when the IPW is too low, atomization, therefore drivability can be affected.



:: Pumps have different pressure and volume capabilities...The '99 pump's being quite low. There are different types of regulators as well.




Hence the need to upgrade......the bottom line is the AFR that results.
well if you are getting driveability issues with too small a PW, then generally too large of an injector is being used unless its needed for crazy airflow requirements under boost. my camaro has 42 lb/hr injectors in it, and it makes about 550hp n/a no drivability issues with an injector of that size, boosted apps can still use that injector up to 650-700hp on the street, so im at the low end of the scale on that.

i know pumps have different pressures and volume capabilities, the fuel pump will put out more pressure then the injector sees, hence the requirement/job of the regulator. i have a walbro 255lph in my camaro and know guys that run single ones up to 600-700hp. adding a high flow pump to the system wont affect the pressure, flow rate of an injector is based off of a given pressure which is provided by the regulator, so just swapping in a high flow pump should have done nothing to your driveability. any added fuel flow in the system that is not used will be returned to the tank.
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blue 79 camaro Z/28 old combo:
355cid, 700hp 650 tq 150 shot
- 10.13@134.5mph 1.45 60ft 3650lbs
new nitrous equipped 434 sbc in the works.

95 camaro Z/28, 383ci advanced induction top end, full bolt ons, A4, just another 11 sec street car...
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Old 09-24-2008, 04:49 PM   #18
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.................., so just swapping in a high flow pump should have done nothing to your driveability. any added fuel flow in the system that is not used will be returned to the tank.
That's not what I said....

If the stock pump did not have the full capability to feed the larger injectors, which actually was the case here, then yes, performance will get better. I was talking about WOT in that instance, with the Trailblazer injectors, 10+ lbs of boost. The o2's scanned much better with the Walbro.

Low speed drivabilty was not a problem with either pump.
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1999 GLS MP90 supercharged / 2003 GL MP62 supercharged / 2004 GLS stock
Magnuson MP90 / TOG's / 3 in. Magnaflow exhaust / MSD ignition / LS1 MAF / Racetronix pump / HP Tuners / TCE 68mm TB / 36 lb Inj
= Best track time: 12.951 @ 104.48, 1.839 60 ft. (Beech Bend Raceway Park, 11-23-13), 50 Deg. F
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpVYZPbpPzk
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Old 09-24-2008, 04:55 PM   #19
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it was misunderstood then, i agree, if you were indeed running out of fuel then there would be a change.
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blue 79 camaro Z/28 old combo:
355cid, 700hp 650 tq 150 shot
- 10.13@134.5mph 1.45 60ft 3650lbs
new nitrous equipped 434 sbc in the works.

95 camaro Z/28, 383ci advanced induction top end, full bolt ons, A4, just another 11 sec street car...
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