GrandAmGT.com Forum
http://www.pfyc.com GrandAmGT.com Premium Memership Signup
RedlineGoods.com   

Go Back   GrandAmGT.com Forum > GAGT - Technical - Sponsored by www.MilzyMotorSports.com > Technical Q&A

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 09-05-2009, 11:50 AM   #1
alocaurd
GAGT - Member
 
alocaurd's Avatar
 
AKA: Clayton
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Huntsville, Ontario
Posts: 67
Vehicle: 2000 Grand Am SE
alocaurd Gettin' there
5 speed parts

ok so,

i just got a message from my friend at the junkyard saying they just got a 5spd 2000 grand am in with the 4cyl in it. everything works fine except the actual tranny. i have a 2000 grand am se with the 3400 in it and i was wondering what parts i should strip off this junker for a 5 speed swap ex. clutch pedal assembly, center console etc.

thanks!
alocaurd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-2009, 11:23 AM   #2
alocaurd
GAGT - Member
 
alocaurd's Avatar
 
AKA: Clayton
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Huntsville, Ontario
Posts: 67
Vehicle: 2000 Grand Am SE
alocaurd Gettin' there
yeah but what does everything include..
alocaurd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-2009, 01:26 PM   #3
AaronGTR
BlingWithBallz
 
AaronGTR's Avatar
 
AKA: Aaron
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Detroit area, MI
Age: 40
Posts: 12,233
Vehicle: 2000 Grand Am GT1 2dr
AaronGTR has made plenty of valid pointsAaronGTR has made plenty of valid points
You'll need most of the same stuff as in this thread. HOW TO: Intstall a 6 speed in a GA GT

Make a list and then grab anything while you're in there that looks like it might be specific to the manual GA or might be otherwise useful. I can count the number of people with manual converted 6cyl grand ams on one hand, so you are kinda on your own here. You need to have good mechanical knowledge and a thorough understanding of what needs to be done. This is an advanced procedure. Not an easy install.
__________________
The few, the proud, the boosted!
13.788 @ 103.73 mph (3/2011) 320 whp and 300 ft/lbs torque. (3/2011)
See it here. the total package.
AaronGTR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-2009, 01:41 PM   #4
CraiGT
GAGT - Member
 
CraiGT's Avatar
 
AKA: Craig
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Chandler AZ
Posts: 145
Vehicle: 98 Grand Am GT SC
CraiGT Gettin' there
Yeah grab everything. Except the transmission itself. It wont bolt up.
CraiGT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-2009, 02:29 PM   #5
alocaurd
GAGT - Member
 
alocaurd's Avatar
 
AKA: Clayton
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Huntsville, Ontario
Posts: 67
Vehicle: 2000 Grand Am SE
alocaurd Gettin' there
i was trying to avoid buying the whole car if possible but it looks like it may be the best bet just in case. i saw a list somewhere else but i cant find it of trans that would work, i seem to remember a beretta trans would work?
alocaurd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-2009, 06:02 PM   #6
AaronGTR
BlingWithBallz
 
AaronGTR's Avatar
 
AKA: Aaron
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Detroit area, MI
Age: 40
Posts: 12,233
Vehicle: 2000 Grand Am GT1 2dr
AaronGTR has made plenty of valid pointsAaronGTR has made plenty of valid points
Quote:
Originally Posted by CraiGT View Post
Yeah grab everything. Except the transmission itself. It wont bolt up.

Uh, wrong. It will bolt up, but it wouldn't do any good since in his first post he said the tranny itself was messed up. He just needs the other parts from it.

People have done the actual swaps with that transmission, with earlier 5 speeds, and with the 6 speed from the G6 GTP. They all use the same bolt pattern. The grand am 4 cyl came with either a 5spd or a 4T40E automatic. The 4T40 uses the same trans case as the 4t45 which is with the 3400... therefore the 5spd from the 4cyl car WILL bolt to a 3400 block.

The 3800 and 4T60/4T65 trans uses the same bolt pattern as well because there were W body cars you could get with 3100/3400 engines and 4T65's, and earlier GA models had 3100 engines and 4T60's. Basically there are like 6 different engines and 6 different transmissions you could use in a grand am with the right parts and enough work. Of course, only certain combo's make any sense to use.
__________________
The few, the proud, the boosted!
13.788 @ 103.73 mph (3/2011) 320 whp and 300 ft/lbs torque. (3/2011)
See it here. the total package.
AaronGTR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-06-2009, 08:54 PM   #7
CraiGT
GAGT - Member
 
CraiGT's Avatar
 
AKA: Craig
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Chandler AZ
Posts: 145
Vehicle: 98 Grand Am GT SC
CraiGT Gettin' there
Quote:
Originally Posted by AaronGTR View Post
Uh, wrong. It will bolt up, but it wouldn't do any good since in his first post he said the tranny itself was messed up. He just needs the other parts from it.

People have done the actual swaps with that transmission, with earlier 5 speeds, and with the 6 speed from the G6 GTP. They all use the same bolt pattern. The grand am 4 cyl came with either a 5spd or a 4T40E automatic. The 4T40 uses the same trans case as the 4t45 which is with the 3400... therefore the 5spd from the 4cyl car WILL bolt to a 3400 block.
Good luck with that. When he tries to bolt it up and finds out it doesnt work, Ill point the finger at you.

The LD9/Ecotec from the 99+ GrandAms are the only models that could come 5 speed. And guess what, they only fit their specific engine. It WILL NOT bolt up to a 3400. Not even the 3100, the 3800, none of those.

What WILL bolt up to the 3400 is the Cavalier/Sunfire 2.2 trans. And yes, the G6 trans from the 3900. And yes, trans from the older V6 model vehicles, but no 99+ GrandAm 5speed will bolt up to the 3400.
CraiGT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2009, 10:22 AM   #8
AaronGTR
BlingWithBallz
 
AaronGTR's Avatar
 
AKA: Aaron
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Detroit area, MI
Age: 40
Posts: 12,233
Vehicle: 2000 Grand Am GT1 2dr
AaronGTR has made plenty of valid pointsAaronGTR has made plenty of valid points
Quote:
Originally Posted by CraiGT View Post
Good luck with that. When he tries to bolt it up and finds out it doesnt work, Ill point the finger at you.

The LD9/Ecotec from the 99+ GrandAms are the only models that could come 5 speed. And guess what, they only fit their specific engine. It WILL NOT bolt up to a 3400. Not even the 3100, the 3800, none of those.

What WILL bolt up to the 3400 is the Cavalier/Sunfire 2.2 trans. And yes, the G6 trans from the 3900. And yes, trans from the older V6 model vehicles, but no 99+ GrandAm 5speed will bolt up to the 3400.

Whatever. We all know the 4 cyl cars were the only ones that came from the factory with the manual... DUH. That doesn't mean they won't bolt up. I guess those people who have done 5spd swaps didn't know what they were talking about then. And GM obviously doesn't either... since they used basically the SAME AUTOMATIC TRANSMISSION on the 4 cylinder cars as the 6 cylinder cars... which means they will bolt to the same block. It also uses the same case bolt pattern as the earlier 282/284 trans, which was used in earlier J/N body platforms and W body platforms... which ALL used engines with the same bolt pattern! And they didn't even offer the ecotec in '99 either. They had the 2.4 until 2002 and switched to the 2.2 ecotec in 2003. You obviously haven't been around much and have no idea what you are talking about.


PS. Have you tried this yourself? If you're so sure it won't work, why don't you post up some pics or more detailed info?
__________________
The few, the proud, the boosted!
13.788 @ 103.73 mph (3/2011) 320 whp and 300 ft/lbs torque. (3/2011)
See it here. the total package.

Last edited by AaronGTR; 09-07-2009 at 10:32 AM.
AaronGTR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2009, 10:59 AM   #9
O1GAGT
GAGT - Senior Member
 
AKA: Phil
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Fort Wayne, IN
Age: 34
Posts: 1,099
Vehicle: 2001 Grand Am GT Coupe
O1GAGT Gettin' there
Quote:
Originally Posted by AaronGTR View Post
Whatever. We all know the 4 cyl cars were the only ones that came from the factory with the manual... DUH. That doesn't mean they won't bolt up. I guess those people who have done 5spd swaps didn't know what they were talking about then. And GM obviously doesn't either... since they used basically the SAME AUTOMATIC TRANSMISSION on the 4 cylinder cars as the 6 cylinder cars... which means they will bolt to the same block. It also uses the same case bolt pattern as the earlier 282/284 trans, which was used in earlier J/N body platforms and W body platforms... which ALL used engines with the same bolt pattern! And they didn't even offer the ecotec in '99 either. They had the 2.4 until 2002 and switched to the 2.2 ecotec in 2003. You obviously haven't been around much and have no idea what you are talking about.


PS. Have you tried this yourself? If you're so sure it won't work, why don't you post up some pics or more detailed info?
Aaron, I hate to inform you, but Craig is correct.

The 5 speed trans out of the 2000 even if it was a working transmission would not bolt to the 3400 block as the 2.4L and Ecotec use different bell housings. A 4t40e from a 2.4L is basically the same as the 4t45e and will bolt in, but the bell housing on the 2.4L is different than a 3400 and therefore would prove to be useless if trying to mate it to the 3400 engine.

The 2.2L OHV manual trans from a cavalier would work well or a 282/284 with the V6 bell housing.

Craig never said the Ecotec was available in 99, he indicated "The LD9/Ecotec from the 99+ grand am are the only models that could come 5 speed" Meaning that in the 99+ grand am, the 5 speed was never offered with the 3400.
__________________
"The world's best cam combined with a poor set of heads will produce an engine that's a dog. But bolt on a set of great heads even with a poor cam, and that engine will still make great power." ~John Lingenfelter
O1GAGT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2009, 07:52 PM   #10
alocaurd
GAGT - Member
 
alocaurd's Avatar
 
AKA: Clayton
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Huntsville, Ontario
Posts: 67
Vehicle: 2000 Grand Am SE
alocaurd Gettin' there
now assuming i get a trans from a 2.2 cav, would the gear ratios not be off? i.e 70mph=3000rpm? the 5spd seems like it is much more cost effective but if it is going to kill fuel milage than the extra money and work for the 6spd seems more appealing
alocaurd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2009, 08:47 PM   #11
AaronGTR
BlingWithBallz
 
AaronGTR's Avatar
 
AKA: Aaron
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Detroit area, MI
Age: 40
Posts: 12,233
Vehicle: 2000 Grand Am GT1 2dr
AaronGTR has made plenty of valid pointsAaronGTR has made plenty of valid points
Quote:
Originally Posted by O1GAGT View Post
The 5 speed trans out of the 2000 even if it was a working transmission would not bolt to the 3400 block as the 2.4L and Ecotec use different bell housings. A 4t40e from a 2.4L is basically the same as the 4t45e and will bolt in, but the bell housing on the 2.4L is different than a 3400 and therefore would prove to be useless if trying to mate it to the 3400 engine.
How do you figure that? Since they used the automatic and the manual on the same 4 cylinder engine, and the auto is the same case as our auto, the bolt holes are in the same place so there is no reason why that manual should not bolt to our block. It should have the same holes, unless GM used a different 2.4L engine block for use with the manual, which I can't see them doing.


Quote:
Originally Posted by alocaurd View Post
now assuming i get a trans from a 2.2 cav, would the gear ratios not be off? i.e 70mph=3000rpm? the 5spd seems like it is much more cost effective but if it is going to kill fuel milage than the extra money and work for the 6spd seems more appealing
Getrag F23 M86 5spd
First: 3.58
Second: 2.02
Third: 1.35
Fourth: 0.98
Fifth: 0.69
Reverse: 3.31
final drive: 3.94

Hydromatic 4T45E automatic
First: 2.957
Second: 1.623
Third: 1.000
Fourth: 0.683
Reverse: 2.143
final drive: 3.29

Those are the gear ratios. You would have quite a bit better acceleration with the manual, but yes you would be turning more engine rpm at freeway speed. Fifth gear is slightly higher than our fourth and it has a higher final drive. You might be able to change the final drive ratio though.
__________________
The few, the proud, the boosted!
13.788 @ 103.73 mph (3/2011) 320 whp and 300 ft/lbs torque. (3/2011)
See it here. the total package.

Last edited by AaronGTR; 09-07-2009 at 11:07 PM.
AaronGTR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2009, 09:07 PM   #12
O1GAGT
GAGT - Senior Member
 
AKA: Phil
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Fort Wayne, IN
Age: 34
Posts: 1,099
Vehicle: 2001 Grand Am GT Coupe
O1GAGT Gettin' there
Quote:
Originally Posted by AaronGTR View Post
How do you figure that? Since they used the automatic and the manual on the same 4 cylinder engine, and the auto is the same case as our auto, the bolt holes are in the same place so there is no reason why that manual should not bolt to our block. It should have the same holes, unless GM used a different 2.4L engine block for use with the manual, which I can't see them doing.
How do I figure.... I know because I have done research on it in the past.
The 2.4L LD9 uses a different bell housing than the 3400 plain and simple.

See the links below.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Alero...4506.m20.l1116

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/99-00...=p4506.c0.m245
__________________
"The world's best cam combined with a poor set of heads will produce an engine that's a dog. But bolt on a set of great heads even with a poor cam, and that engine will still make great power." ~John Lingenfelter
O1GAGT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2009, 09:56 PM   #13
mfuller
Mr. Common Sense
 
mfuller's Avatar
 
AKA: Matt
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Loves Park, IL USA
Age: 43
Posts: 2,027
Vehicle: 2000 Alero GLS sedan
mfuller a trusted member
The ratios for the F23 5-speed aren't bad at all, but the final drive is pretty steep. I think the numerically lower 3.61 FDR would be the hot ticket for the 3400.
70MPH highway cruise in 5th gear would be roughly 2300rpm.
__________________
Matt - Resident brake and suspension guru
Also, your friendly Performance and Technical Moderator
Please don't tailgate, text and drive, drink and drive, or otherwise act like an asshat.
Currently without an engine, Quaife LSD-equipped F40, a few suspension and brake bits, and a partridge in a pear tree.

Last edited by mfuller; 09-07-2009 at 10:02 PM.
mfuller is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2009, 01:55 AM   #14
CraiGT
GAGT - Member
 
CraiGT's Avatar
 
AKA: Craig
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Chandler AZ
Posts: 145
Vehicle: 98 Grand Am GT SC
CraiGT Gettin' there
Damn Aaron. Over 6000 posts I thought you would have known better .

Although its the same auto trans for the LD9 and the 3400, the tranny case itself is a different bell housing.

Just like the 00-02 GAs with the LD9 5speed getrag trans. Same 5speed trans as the ecotecs getrag trans, but the bell housings are indeed different, and only fit their specific motor.

But dont listen to me... the n00b I guess, lmao.
CraiGT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2009, 11:19 AM   #15
AaronGTR
BlingWithBallz
 
AaronGTR's Avatar
 
AKA: Aaron
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Detroit area, MI
Age: 40
Posts: 12,233
Vehicle: 2000 Grand Am GT1 2dr
AaronGTR has made plenty of valid pointsAaronGTR has made plenty of valid points
Quote:
Originally Posted by CraiGT View Post
Damn Aaron. Over 6000 posts I thought you would have known better .

Although its the same auto trans for the LD9 and the 3400, the tranny case itself is a different bell housing.

Just like the 00-02 GAs with the LD9 5speed getrag trans. Same 5speed trans as the ecotecs getrag trans, but the bell housings are indeed different, and only fit their specific motor.

But dont listen to me... the n00b I guess, lmao.

Well, yeah you are a noob. And you aren't offering any kind of evidence to corroborate your claims so... what do you expect? We'll just take what you say at face value when we have no idea if you know what you are talking about?
__________________
The few, the proud, the boosted!
13.788 @ 103.73 mph (3/2011) 320 whp and 300 ft/lbs torque. (3/2011)
See it here. the total package.
AaronGTR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2009, 04:55 PM   #16
O1GAGT
GAGT - Senior Member
 
AKA: Phil
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Fort Wayne, IN
Age: 34
Posts: 1,099
Vehicle: 2001 Grand Am GT Coupe
O1GAGT Gettin' there
Quote:
Originally Posted by AaronGTR View Post
Well, yeah you are a noob. And you aren't offering any kind of evidence to corroborate your claims so... what do you expect? We'll just take what you say at face value when we have no idea if you know what you are talking about?
See my post above, what more evidence do you need.
Face it, Craig is correct..... admit it and move on.
__________________
"The world's best cam combined with a poor set of heads will produce an engine that's a dog. But bolt on a set of great heads even with a poor cam, and that engine will still make great power." ~John Lingenfelter
O1GAGT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2009, 07:56 PM   #17
CraiGT
GAGT - Member
 
CraiGT's Avatar
 
AKA: Craig
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Chandler AZ
Posts: 145
Vehicle: 98 Grand Am GT SC
CraiGT Gettin' there
Moderator note:
Alright - no need to rub it in.

Last edited by mfuller; 09-08-2009 at 08:02 PM.
CraiGT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-2009, 11:30 AM   #18
AaronGTR
BlingWithBallz
 
AaronGTR's Avatar
 
AKA: Aaron
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Detroit area, MI
Age: 40
Posts: 12,233
Vehicle: 2000 Grand Am GT1 2dr
AaronGTR has made plenty of valid pointsAaronGTR has made plenty of valid points
Quote:
Originally Posted by O1GAGT View Post
See my post above, what more evidence do you need.
Face it, Craig is correct..... admit it and move on.
Well if you guys want to be pissy about it... you're both still technically wrong because you can make an adapter plate for the bell housing and a spacer for the flywheel and it will work. I've seen it done on other cars so I know it can be done. It's just that in this case it's cheaper and easier to just use one of the other transmissions.
__________________
The few, the proud, the boosted!
13.788 @ 103.73 mph (3/2011) 320 whp and 300 ft/lbs torque. (3/2011)
See it here. the total package.
AaronGTR is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-2009, 12:07 PM   #19
CraiGT
GAGT - Member
 
CraiGT's Avatar
 
AKA: Craig
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Chandler AZ
Posts: 145
Vehicle: 98 Grand Am GT SC
CraiGT Gettin' there
Quote:
Originally Posted by AaronGTR View Post
Well if you guys want to be pissy about it... you're both still technically wrong because you can make an adapter plate for the bell housing and a spacer for the flywheel and it will work. I've seen it done on other cars so I know it can be done. It's just that in this case it's cheaper and easier to just use one of the other transmissions.
Are you kidding me? You just defined a prime example of something NOT bolting up. Stop trying to feel like you were not wrong.

Oh and a note to mfuller for editing my post. I didnt mean for it to be taken literal. I meant it as a joke otherwise I wouldnt have called myself n00b. Maybe I should have clarified better. My bad.

I would just like Aaron to ADMIT he learned something new.
CraiGT is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-2009, 04:06 PM   #20
AaronGTR
BlingWithBallz
 
AaronGTR's Avatar
 
AKA: Aaron
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Detroit area, MI
Age: 40
Posts: 12,233
Vehicle: 2000 Grand Am GT1 2dr
AaronGTR has made plenty of valid pointsAaronGTR has made plenty of valid points
Quote:
Originally Posted by CraiGT View Post
Are you kidding me? You just defined a prime example of something NOT bolting up. Stop trying to feel like you were not wrong.

Oh and a note to mfuller for editing my post. I didnt mean for it to be taken literal. I meant it as a joke otherwise I wouldnt have called myself n00b. Maybe I should have clarified better. My bad.

I would just like Aaron to ADMIT he learned something new.

ghey... ok I learned something new.
__________________
The few, the proud, the boosted!
13.788 @ 103.73 mph (3/2011) 320 whp and 300 ft/lbs torque. (3/2011)
See it here. the total package.
AaronGTR is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 01:19 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright 2011 GrandAmGT.com
RedlineGoods.com