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[locoman99]

Originally Posted by Cam2Fast

The thing is, making that much boost would be impractical because the energy required is non linear. It's exponential (based on compressor work curves). If we cranked it up to 15 pounds, it'd look stupid (unreasonable current requirements and motor size). You'd need much larger batteries or more of them and a significantly larger/heavier motor.

You have a good suggestion to compare equal quantities though. That's the best way to compare anything. In this case I'd recommend 5psi as the baseline though.

This why you cannot compare the two. 5lbs is not the ceiling for a traditional system, actually its just the floor. Of all the "disadvantages" you cite about traditional systems, you disregard the one huge advantage, lots of boost. So for what you say is 2/3rds the cost, i get 1/3rd the boost?

[Cam2Fast]

@Plastic

I hear you and I'm happy to oblige. Tomorrow I'll see if I can throw something together before the superbowl. I assure you I'm not here to be a parasite or sell anything so I'll do what I can with what I've got. I have to warn however that calculations do not constitute proof. They are merely a model and I did not invent the product that I've made frequent reference to so my calculations will be more of a thermodynamics/electrical model based on intangible system rather than physical geometry and measurements.

@loco

You are essentially correct IMO. I think you're getting more for your money than just the boost itself, since there are other benefits that I alluded to but yes, you're right that it's a low-end boost application and therefore is best supplemented with other mods. It's a niche application for sure but I would say it's a better investment than something like, say an exhaust system. It may also be a great investment for a daily driver because it maintains the fuel economy of an N/A car until you need boost and then you get an appreciable gain of 5 psi. It's not the be all and end all but it's right for certain people.

I should point out that as far as I'm aware these devices are nominally spec'd to run at 5psi based on displacement of your engine. However you could oversize the unit and request a different gearing from the manufacturer to get more pressure on a lower displacement car. It'd be a custom job but I'm sure there's no technical reason why it can't be done. I saw a pic of a viper using one of these. It should be possible to repurpose it to work on a GA at a higher boost level. You may not get 15 lbs but you might get 10... that's just speculation though.

[klokworx]

[DrFabulous]

First, I'm happy to report that my initial findings have been proved successful in repeat trials.

How to: improve your GAGT.com experience

[AaronGTR]

Originally Posted by Cam2Fast

While nothing would please me more than to just plaster all the proof in the world for all to see, I don't have the means to do any of this myself.

As for the motor I linked, it's not the same motor but it's a 5kW motor all the same. It weights half a kg. That's nothing. Add to that a small geartrain, the turbo itself, 4 small motorcycle batteries to get the 48 volts and some electrical paraphernalia. It's not "that" heavy. Have a look at the installations in the article. It's no bigger than a normal supercharger and has fewer parts. I just don't get this argument that an electric supercharger is super complicated, super heavy and super big. It just isn't. It's the same size.

I know a video would be great but in the absence of a video we can still infer some details through theoretical means and by using surrogate data from other similar products.

So wait... you make all these claims about how it's the same size and weight, it will make the same power, it's easy to do, blah blah blah..... but you haven't done it yourself, you don't know anyone who has, and you have no proof.

You claim to work for GM and be an engineer... which you haven't shown any proof of either and keep ignoring the topic... but you "don't have the means" to do this yourself?! I find that HIGHLY unlikely if you where who you claim to be. You sound more like a teenager with a pipe dream though and just keep digging yourself a bigger hole.

Originally Posted by Cam2Fast

The pictures tell the story of how big it is, the list of materials gives you an idea of the mass, and my mechatronics experience tells me what's involved in wiring it all up. I'm making some assumptions but they're reasonable assumptions. I don't have an electric supercharger and maybe if I tried to install one it'd be a pain in the ass but I don't get that feeling when I look at this. It seems totally doable with only basic skills.

Sorry, but assumptions and feelings don't count for squat around here. Especially not when they fly in the face of accepted and proven engineering principles and performance modifications.

Originally Posted by Cam2Fast

How can I quote what I don't have in my hands? I don't make things up. I could put a bunch of math down but you'd probably just scoff at that anyway.

In any case, I want to get away from the idea that I have this burden of proof to deliver an answer or something. I was hoping to discuss various topics in a casual fashion, where different people shared opinions and experiences. Not being able to drill answers out of 1 person doesn't mean there's nothing to talk about. It'd be like me saying that cold air intakes are not worth discussing because I asked what the drop in temperature would be and nobody could tell me.

We shared our opinions and experiences with you. Unfortunately, you didn't like the outcome of that because it didn't mesh with your electric fantasy, therefore you continue to argue your point with us in a state of denial because you just can't let go of that pipe dream.

[[ChaosweaveR]]

Originally Posted by DrFabulous

First, I'm happy to report that my initial findings have been proved successful in repeat trials.

How to: improve your GAGT.com experience

It really works.

[DrFabulous]

Originally Posted by Cam2Fast

You have some valid points and I can appreciate that there will be skepticism. I'm asking you to believe me when I say I'm not trying to sell anything. I can only ask people to believe, not convince them. It may be tempting to focus on details that look conspicuous but at the end of the day you still have a bunch of content that speaks only about cars, not money.

The general nature of the content is deliberate in that it is geared towards introducing a reader to various mods, concepts and technologies without overwhelming. It is a study "in breadth".

As for the electric supercharger, I disagree a little in the sense that this is not an overly expensive product. It ranges from about 2-3.5 grand. The RSM supercharger I've seen on PFYC was at the upper end of that range. The electric system is no more complex than any regular super. In fact it's less complex. Sure you have to do some wiring but that's pretty easy. There's no custom fabrication or any of that. All the custom work to mate the electric and mechanical sub-assemblies is done for you. It truly is a "bolt-on" in that sense. A beginner could install one.

There is a dyno in the article but not a video so yeah... you may want more convincing before accepting the product. The way I prefer to go about it is to NOT think about the product at all. Think about the inputs and the outputs. Look at the math. Does it make sense? Could the numbers be real or is it BS? If you solve all of the energy equations using a proper blower and a 4-battery powerplant, you see that yes, at least on paper, there are some HEALTHY gains to be had, well into the +30% regime. Proving that a given product can achieve this requires proof that I can't yet provide although I'm eventually going to buy one for myself. However, looking at the hardware alone, you can make some speculative decisions about how sound the concept is. A turbo doesn't care what drives it. It's a very very simple design. It's just a housing that relies on principles of fluid dynamics to compress air. Drive it with whatever you want... a belt, a turbine, an electric winch motor? It doesn't matter in the slightest. If you trust other blowers on the market, there's no reason not to trust the exact same product with a battery on it. You may look at the electric sub-assembly and ask yourself whether it can provide enough power but if you believe the specifications of the motor and the batteries, it seems perfectly capable of doing anything a regular super/turbo can do.

Why are you trying to get people to "believe" in electric superchargers? I find it difficult to believe that you do not stand to make any financial gains from the sale of the product you're talking about. Now, if you had built a kit on your car (or even if you have seen one built on a car), that'd be different... but you already admitted that you hadn't.

How can you disagree that it is not expensive? Even the low range of what you posted ($2k) doesn't include the tuning, fabrication to work/fit on a Grand Am, batteries, and charging system... that's another $1000 that someone is looking at. (I'd love to see a picture of what all is included that would make this kit a "bolt on" in a Grand Am, BTW.) Again, I ask you to put yourself in someone else's shoes; you can throw theory and ideas around all you want, but until it has been proven to have gains on a Grand Am, there isn't a fool on here that will spend that kind of money.

Word of advice: the more you post with emotion, the worse you look.



PS- if you do some more research on the company making that kit, there seems to be a bunch of talk about it from 2003-2006 (including several people discussing the HORRID quality of the kits when they did order them), then they disappear for 6-7 years. Hell, even the "testimonials" on there are from TEN YEARS ago, if the links work at all. Everything about this company is suspect, and I refuse to sit by while someone tries to convince members on here to spend their money there.

[DrFabulous]

Originally Posted by Cam2Fast

You think I'm an illiterate moron? I'm an automotive engineer son. I also work at GM Powertrain and have tuned control modules for 7 years. I'm pretty sure I could teach you a thing or two so don't talk down to me. Try to be humble in life instead of being a ****y ass. You never know when you might learn something new.

Tell me something... why would an "automotive engineer" that works at GM need to take his car to a mechanic to fix an e-brake?

E-Brake broken (kind of)

Originally Posted by Cam2Fast

So I went to park my car one day as I always do, on my driveway which is a very steep grade and when I engaged the parking brake, it felt fine until I let it go and realized it wouldn't stay. Seems the button had popped out quite a bit and there was no ratcheting action at all... gone. Whatever clutch or gear is in there to keep the brake up is apparently busted although the brake itself still works perfectly fine.

Is this repairable or does it make more sense just to replace the whole handle? How might I go about such a task? Thank you.

Originally Posted by Cam2Fast

Lol that's what I figured... damn thing. Worked fine for more than a decade only to go tits up on me now.

How much of a PITA is it to swap it out? Do I have to rip everything apart to get at it? I'd prefer not to have a mechanic destroy my interior over a brake handle.

Originally Posted by Cam2Fast

No no no no no.... I have so much custom wiring going up through there. I can't rip all that apart. I'll never get it all back together again. WTF this thing have to break for?

Seriously looking at the sprite bottle option.

I guess I shouldn't have hooked nitrous into the cupholder and my subwoofer volume control into the lid. What a mess.

Thanks for the PDFs. I know you were trying to help. I just have a sick feeling now though thinking of fixing this. I wish cars were designed to be more repair-friendly.

If you have an explanation, I'm all ears. You know, something like a picture of your nitrous setup, or of something that says you work for GM.

[[ChaosweaveR]]

Originally Posted by DrFabulous

Tell me something... why would an "automotive engineer" that works at GM need to take his car to a mechanic to fix an e-brake?

E-Brake broken (kind of)


If you have an explanation, I'm all ears. You know, something like a picture of your nitrous setup, or of something that says you work for GM.

Oh shit, that was OP's thread? I noticed it in my new posts, but never bothered to click on it.

This is awesome.

[TruGreenGAGT]

But....butt.....butttt.....I cans do it. I works for thee GM
(in a whiny childs voice)


I'm starting to agree with Coop and feel sorry for this guy......
but ya then I just don't give a crap either....so much lulz in here

[AaronGTR]

Originally Posted by locoman99

This why you cannot compare the two. 5lbs is not the ceiling for a traditional system, actually its just the floor. Of all the "disadvantages" you cite about traditional systems, you disregard the one huge advantage, lots of boost. So for what you say is 2/3rds the cost, i get 1/3rd the boost?

This is one place where I will definitely agree with you. Who would want a blower that maxes out at 5psi, when a traditional one usually starts out at that level? With a turbo or S/C all you have to do is adjust a boost controller or change a pulley, and you've got more boost.



Yes, that still has it's limitations based on the flow capability of a given S/C or turbo compressor, but it's easier than switching around electric motors and gearing and modifying the electrical system because you need more volts or amps for a larger motor. Electrical motors make max torque at zero rpm and is decreases until peak rpm. With the rpm required to spin a compressor, and the power requirement to drive the compressor increasing as boost level increases, you'd need a pretty substantial motor and battery system to make higher levels of boost. Especially compared to a traditional system.


And therein lies the biggest advantage of a traditional system. Even though increasing boost makes more parasitic drag on the engine, the gains are still higher than with what it would take to make an equivalent electrical system when you factor in weight, cost, and space required. Even with the improvements in batteries, gasoline is STILL a higher density and more efficient means of storing energy than a battery. And that's all this really boils down to is a difference in the efficiencies of converting energy into mechanical motion. People have been perfecting the internal combustion engine for 120 years. It's going to take some time and more scientific advances for a portable electrical system to catch up.

[[ChaosweaveR]]

Originally Posted by TruGreenGAGT

But....butt.....butttt.....I cans do it. I works for thee GM
(in a whiny childs voice)


I'm starting to agree with Coop and feel sorry for this guy......
but ya then I just don't give a crap either....so much lulz in here

First epic thread of 2013.

[Cam2Fast]

Look I just logged in this morning to a dozen more flame posts so I don't have the time or willpower to continue to defend my character here and that's not the point. Stop drilling into me and focus more on the topic. I agreed to post some math but if you don't care enough to give it any sort of weight or consideration, I'd be wasting my time. Let me know because I have better things to do and I'm not going to spend the time I do have trying to prove I'm not a scam artist or an idiot or a teenager or a marketer or w/e.

[DrFabulous]

Originally Posted by Cam2Fast

Look I just logged in this morning to a dozen more flame posts so I don't have the time or willpower to continue to defend my character here and that's not the point. Stop drilling into me and focus more on the topic. I agreed to post some math but if you don't care enough to give it any sort of weight or consideration, I'd be wasting my time. Let me know because I have better things to do and I'm not going to spend the time I do have trying to prove I'm not a scam artist or an idiot or a teenager or a marketer or w/e.

It takes 45 seconds to take a picture to prove your nitrous setup and that you're a GM employee. If you don't want to, that's fine, but it just proves you're a complete joke.

[[ChaosweaveR]]

Originally Posted by Cam2Fast

Look I just logged in this morning to a dozen more flame posts so I don't have the time or willpower to continue to defend my character here and that's not the point. Stop drilling into me and focus more on the topic. I agreed to post some math but if you don't care enough to give it any sort of weight or consideration, I'd be wasting my time. Let me know because I have better things to do and I'm not going to spend the time I do have trying to prove I'm not a scam artist or an idiot or a teenager or a marketer or w/e.

You're not going to spend the time because you have no actual facts or data to support your "theories". You haven't even bought anything for your own car. Hell, do you even own a Grand Am? At all?

[Cam2Fast]

Originally Posted by AaronGTR

This is one place where I will definitely agree with you. Who would want a blower that maxes out at 5psi, when a traditional one usually starts out at that level? With a turbo or S/C all you have to do is adjust a boost controller or change a pulley, and you've got more boost.



Yes, that still has it's limitations based on the flow capability of a given S/C or turbo compressor, but it's easier than switching around electric motors and gearing and modifying the electrical system because you need more volts or amps for a larger motor. Electrical motors make max torque at zero rpm and is decreases until peak rpm. With the rpm required to spin a compressor, and the power requirement to drive the compressor increasing as boost level increases, you'd need a pretty substantial motor and battery system to make higher levels of boost. Especially compared to a traditional system.


And therein lies the biggest advantage of a traditional system. Even though increasing boost makes more parasitic drag on the engine, the gains are still higher than with what it would take to make an equivalent electrical system when you factor in weight, cost, and space required. Even with the improvements in batteries, gasoline is STILL a higher density and more efficient means of storing energy than a battery. And that's all this really boils down to is a difference in the efficiencies of converting energy into mechanical motion. People have been perfecting the internal combustion engine for 120 years. It's going to take some time and more scientific advances for a portable electrical system to catch up.

I agree with you on pretty much everything except that there are some unique advantages that I think some modders would benefit from. If you want more than 5 lbs of boost, then this isn't right for you OR you'll have to add to it.

However, if you want to increase the longevity of the engine or add other power mods, the electric solution provides some additional headroom as I pointed out. I'll re-iterate that I'm not saying this is simply better than a normal sc. It's "different" and those differences may be a benefit to you or a waste of time, depending on your build. I could also argue that something simple like a cat-back is a complete waste of time as a mod because of the minimal gains for what you pay when there are more cost effective ways of gaining power. Some people like the look and sound of it though so those are attributes that appeal to some but not others. Nobody says that exhausts are a waste of time because they can justify it for their own needs. Similarly, a subset of modders may justify an electric sc for their needs and that's enough to have the technology around and to discuss it.

[DrFabulous]

Originally Posted by Cam2Fast

Look I just logged in this morning to a dozen more flame posts so I don't have the time or willpower to continue to defend my character here and that's not the point. Stop drilling into me and focus more on the topic. I agreed to post some math but if you don't care enough to give it any sort of weight or consideration, I'd be wasting my time. Let me know because I have better things to do and I'm not going to spend the time I do have trying to prove I'm not a scam artist or an idiot or a teenager or a marketer or w/e.

You've spent this entire thread trying to "prove" that an electric supercharger is a workable product.... yet when someone calls you out, you dismiss it as "I'm not going to waste my time on that"?


If someone challenged me about something in my car and I spent several days arguing about it, I wouldn't hesitate to go outside and take a picture to prove I'm not lying.

[Cam2Fast]

I'm not wasting my time defending "myself". I'm currently spending my time writing up a thermodynamic calculation. My initial purpose was to post 3 articles, which has nothing to do with defending electric superchargers. The fact that this topic has been derailed so much has led you to believe that I'm on a mission to make you guys buy an electric sc. I'm not. I don't care. I do invest some effort in defending the concept however because people say it's hogwash and that bothers me some.

[DrFabulous]

Originally Posted by Cam2Fast

I'm not wasting my time defending "myself". I'm currently spending my time writing up a thermodynamic calculation. My initial purpose was to post 3 articles, which has nothing to do with defending electric superchargers. The fact that this topic has been derailed so much has led you to believe that I'm on a mission to make you guys buy an electric sc. I'm not. I don't care. I do invest some effort in defending the concept however because people say it's hogwash and that bothers me some.

So you're okay with having ZERO credibility?

It would take you literally 2-3 minutes total to show that you are a GM employee and that you have a nitrous system in your Grand Am.

[[ChaosweaveR]]

Originally Posted by Cam2Fast

I'm not wasting my time defending "myself". I'm currently spending my time writing up a thermodynamic calculation. My initial purpose was to post 3 articles, which has nothing to do with defending electric superchargers. The fact that this topic has been derailed so much has led you to believe that I'm on a mission to make you guys buy an electric sc. I'm not. I don't care. I do invest some effort in defending the concept however because people say it's hogwash and that bothers me some.

This is astounding. You want us to believe you with no credible proof?

I doubt you even own a Grand Am with a nitrous kit anymore, or even know engineering outside of googling all you need for your posts.